Lawmaker urges relaxing school weapons ban

Sen. Karen Johnson said she believes the tragedy last week at Northern Illinois University would have been avoided — or at least less tragic — had faculty and students been armed.

The Mesa Republican urged colleagues Monday to approve a bill she has submitted that would partially repeal existing laws and regulations banning weapons on public school, community college and university campuses.

But the police chiefs of all three state universities told members of the Senate Judiciary Committee that more guns on campus could result in more deaths.

The proposed law, known as SB1214, would be limited to those who have a state concealed weapons permit, which has a minimum age requirement of 21.

Johnson said without weapons, students and teachers are “sitting ducks.”

University of Arizona police Chief Anthony Daykin disagreed.

Daykin said dealing with an armed shooter is difficult enough without five or six bystanders pulling out their concealed guns.

“What kind of carnage might we have?” he said.

Bryan Soller, president of Arizona Fraternal Order of Police, told lawmakers to consider the issue from the perspective of police officers responding to the scene — and looking for someone with a gun.

“We say ‘Police!’ He goes ‘What?’ It’s over,” said Soller, a Mesa police sergeant. “He’s going to get shot immediately because if we see a threat we’re going to take him out.”

But much of the debate — and the likely fate of the measure when it comes up for a vote next week — centered around the question of whether more guns might have altered the outcome of last week’s incident at NIU, where a gunman killed six and wounded 16 before taking his own life.

Arizona State University police Chief John Pickens told lawmakers he served at NIU before coming to Arizona.

“I don’t think there is a solution to the violence we’re seeing on campus,” he said. “No preparation can prevent an incident.”

The best answer, he said, is proper training, not only of police but also people on the campus community.

Johnson said having police respond, even quickly, is not the answer.

“It’s who’s there at the time and is ready and available to take care of the situation,” she said.

Johnson said if someone with a concealed weapon were available and already on the scene, “he’d be able to know who it was and, excuse the expression, plug them.”

Johnson also cited a study after last year’s shootings at Virginia Tech that left five dead.

“There were at least 60 different points in the attack where a defender of average skill could have easily neutralized the threat of the active shooter,’’ she said. “What is worse than allowing an execution-style massacre to continue uncontested?

Greg Fowler of Northern Arizona University said having multiple people armed only will slow police response. He said officers would need to stop and question everyone with a weapon fleeing a building to ensure that the shooter does not also escape.

But Johnson said that argument ignores the reality of situations in which a “lockdown” is ordered because someone on campus is brandishing a gun, leaving teachers and students trapped in their classrooms.

“A crazed person comes through that door, they can protect those students,” Johnson continued. “Otherwise, they’re nothing but sitting ducks.”

Her view was backed by Rick Dalton, a former Mesa police officer who now teaches history at a charter school. He said allowing teachers to be armed would allow them to “turn the odds” when someone invades a school and starts shooting.

And UA student Jason Lewis, who has a concealed weapons permit, told lawmakers he’s not concerned about the risk of being shot if police burst into a room looking for a shooter. He said it should be “pretty obvious” who is the real assailant.

And if not?

“If the officers are trigger-happy, that’s their problem — and mine,” Lewis said.

Dave Kopp, president of the Arizona Citizens Defense League, said the whole concern about letting people who have concealed weapons permits have their weapons on campus is overblown.

He said 40 states, including Arizona, already let people carry concealed weapons most other places.

“There has not been blood in the streets, there have not been shootouts, people are not gunning each other down,” he said.