Why is it that when a conservative’s letter is printed, it’s nearly always responded with a liberal’s hatred and rhetoric? I said in my letter that water boarding was not torture. It doesn’t matter how many liberals respond; I will never back down from my viewpoints.
What I said in my letter is 100 percent true. You can have your own opinions about whether water boarding is torture if you want. That won’t change the fact that Daniel Pearl and Terry Schiavo were tortured. You don’t have to be asked any questions for it to be torture. You don’t have to be conscious for it to be torture. By definition, torture is deliberately inflicting pain on a person. The terrorists were never in any pain underwater. And just so you know, the people who carried out the water boarding were water boarded also, just so they would know what it felt like. Now tell me this: If water boarding is torture, why would they let that happen to themselves?
If any liberal can come up with a better way to get vital information from evil scumbags like the terrorists, I’d like to know what that is. I’ll be looking forward to a reply.
Spencer Anderson
Mesa
sockratties posted at 8:50 am on Sun, May 13, 2012.
Spencer – you’re welcome to your unqualified opinion. Go for it. And don’t be surprised when the next Islamic radicals do even worse. Keep raising the bar, if you will, but be sure of your motives. Will you do it for information? For retribution? As a deterrent? For revenge? For pleasure? Do you really know why? Since the experts can’t agree on the validity of the results, is it just a gut feeling?
Good men of the clergy used to roast the soles of the feet of victims of the Inquisition until meat fell off the bones. They extracted confessions that allowed those poor souls to go to heaven with a clear conscience. Seemed like a win-win situation to them. Maybe waterboarding would have been as effective but it may not have given the tormenter as much pleasure. And pleasure is a gut feeling!
Slabside posted at 10:24 am on Sun, May 13, 2012.
@ sockratties, "Go for it. And don’t be surprised when the next Islamic radicals do even worse."
Sock, what could be worse than flying jet liners into building full of people, beheading innocent people in front of video cameras and detonating bombs laced with nails and rat poison in market places loaded with women and children?
Stag_r_Lee posted at 10:43 am on Sun, May 13, 2012.
Water boarding is torture. It's especially heinous when it's used against individuals who have not been duly tried--that is given due process before a jury of their peers--and convicted. it's silly to think otherwise.
. . .
It's torture, but of another category, to invite others to view the world through Islamophobic lens. Yes, I am aware that there are those who, for political reasons, want to take us back to the days preceding the Scopes/Monkey trial. Reductionist who want it believed the word "all" applies to any ethnic, racial or religious group is irrefutable proof that man descended from apes.
sockratties posted at 12:42 pm on Sun, May 13, 2012.
Stag... Darwinist theory is not that man descended from apes, but that man and apes descended from the same creature, aka the missing link. I think that may be true because apes wouldn't do the things we're capable of. That's why it's called inhumane.
Slab... what would be worse is when those sick-oes can use our actions to justify theirs. We've always tried (not always successfully) to be better than what we consider them to be, like the holocaust and Japanese atrosities. I think we're losing that edge and with it a little of what has made us the great country that we are.
Leon Ceniceros posted at 12:50 pm on Sun, May 13, 2012.
Let me see if I understand the question.
One Taliban or al-Queda or Islamic Jihadist or Muslim Brotherhood's life
versus
3000 Innocent American Lives
Does any "real" American have to even give this question an answer. But, Folks, that's the whole problem here. The "people" (they don't deserve to be refered to as ..."citizens") who are so concerned about a terrorist's life or so-called "rights" aren't Americans because they have no "loyalty" or "love of Country".
Instead.....they are "Globalists"......well, if I might make a small suggestion...."why don't you move to one of these ........."terrorists Countries" and then you can "legitimately" critisize those horrible.............."Americans" to your heart's content.
Rational Human posted at 1:35 pm on Sun, May 13, 2012.
We just need to love the terrorists into telling us what their next plan of attack is. If we just treated them like the masters that they think they are and all converted to Islam they wouldn't attack us anymore. You can live with that, right?
Rational Human posted at 1:36 pm on Sun, May 13, 2012.
Waterboard them till they talk or die. Their lives mean as little to me as mine is to them.
Slabside posted at 2:24 pm on Sun, May 13, 2012.
@sockratties, "Slab... what would be worse is when those sick-oes can use our actions to justify theirs."
So, if we turn the other cheek everytime, the radical Muslim extremists will just leave us alone from now on? Well cut my legs off and call me Shorty! Let's do it!
CSalafia posted at 4:25 pm on Sun, May 13, 2012.
Waterboarding is torture. Period. It's also illegal. Period.
So, Spencer believes that breaking the law is ok when we do it. That's the mindset of those who have no morals or ethics.
During WWII, both the Gestapo and some Japanese soldiers used waterboarding as a form of torture. The Japanese were tried after the war and at least one hung by U.S. forces for waterboarding U.S. Airman Chase J. Nielsen.
Waterboarding was declared illegal by U.S. generals during the Vietnam War. When a journalist photgraphed an American soldier helping two South Vietnamese soldiers waterboard a captured North Vietnames soldier, and published in the Washington Post in 1968, it caused outrage across the United States. The soldier was court-martialed and dishonorably discharged from the U.S. army.
In 1983, Texas sheriff James Parker was sentenced to ten years in prison and his deputies to four years apiece for waterboarding prisoners. When his case came up for clemency years later, then Gov. George W. Bush refused to pardon Sheriff Parker, specifically stating that no one is above the law.
Any rationalization or justification of torture, and you lose every right to ever say ANYTHING about how US soldiers and civilians, like Daniel Pearl, are treated.
Any rationalization/justification of torture being "ok when we do it" is absolutely pathetic.
truth posted at 4:39 pm on Sun, May 13, 2012.
There is no hope.
Rational Human posted at 7:06 pm on Sun, May 13, 2012.
Torture is illegal, but where is it stated specifically that waterboarding is illegal? Sounds to me like one man's torture technique is another man's tool of choice. Bush baby did it and isn't in jail. Obamanation says it's legal to assassinate Americans engaged in terrorism. I say they could do whatever they want to do with you and there is nothing you can do about it cause nobody cares.
mrconservative posted at 9:08 pm on Sun, May 13, 2012.
Spencer must have read my comments, because he said the exact same things that I said, that is, to come up with a more “efficient” way of getting the terrorists to talk.
As I’ve said before, Spencer is right. Water boarding is not torture. Also, It was not illegal when we did it to terrorists; Obama banned it when he became president.
Terrorists are 100% EVIL. They deserve to die. They don’t deserve trials. They, dare I say it, DESERVE to be water boarded. And if that’s torture, so be it. They would do a whole lot worse than that to us.
It’s a fact that they didn’t expect us to be this bold. That’s how we got them to talk. It’s a proven fact that water boarding got us the information we needed to kill bin Laden.
And sockratties, Mr. Anderson’s opinion is hardly unqualified. He is an American, like you and me. Even your opinion, wrong though it may be, is qualified. I respect your opinions, even though they’re not fact-based. There is no need for name calling, people. Let’s keep things civilized, okay?
Stag_r_Lee posted at 6:13 am on Mon, May 14, 2012.
Sockrattle,
Thanks for your reply. (Not sure how I would append to your post. ) What needs to be understood, I think, is that those who demonize Muslims are as scientifically savvy as you. In addition, the movers and shakers promoting hatred for religious reasons are aware that fomenting hate for an entire ethnic group cannot be defended on rational grounds, and it runs counter to tradition; hence, they retreat to religion. They know that religion appeals to tribal instincts and the introduction of factual evidence to those who have been brain washed works to threaten core beliefs involving self. Scientific evidence to the contrary AIN'T going to work..
...
In my view, those opposing propagandist who manipulate via religious brain washing must proceed by demanding that Americans choose sides. I stand, for example, on the side of the United States, its traditions and its Constitution. My Constitution makes statements such as, wars should not be declared without the participation of the national legislature and as prescribed by rules clearly promulgated in the Constitution. My side argues that any war not in compliance with the Constitution is an ILLEGAL war; moreover, it follows that actions against foreign nationals during an illegal war are also ILLEGAL. My side says that once a war has been LEGALLY authorized that this nation is bound by treaties and traditions sanctioned by the international community. My side says water boarding is torture.
...
What does their side say? They say, those who attend a church and worshipping according to the Muslim religion gives cause to throw out the Constitution of the United States, our sacred American traditions and our hard won liberties. We are, then, to reduce our selves to primitives and savages and base our national policies or rites and rituals. You say, Islamophobes don't descend from apes. Your argument to prove.
Rational Human posted at 1:04 pm on Mon, May 14, 2012.
Nobody hates Muslims here, but if you read the Quran cover to cover you may be surprised at how much they hate anyone who isn't of their religion. Don't be manipulated by anything but your own research.
Fight against them, kill, convert, or subdue them and (only if it is beneficial to Islam) force them to pay a tax that Muslims do not have to pay (9:29-35). If they refuse to pay, kill them. (Other option is slavery).
Non-Muslims are condemned to hell/cursed/doomed/bad/evil/turned into swine or apes, etc. (2:61, 4:48, 4:50, 4:116, 4:47-52, 4:55, 4:157, 4:160, 5:12-5:13, 5:37, 5:51, 5:53, 5:59-60, 5:72-73, 5:79, 9:29-35, 18:52, 33:26, 59:14, 98:1).
There is enough evidence within the Quran itself to show Islam is a religion of hate, evil, and war. The notion of it being a religion of peace is ridiculous to say the least. At the same time, you can also find evil in the Old Testament as well. Such as the killing of homosexuals, the stoning of disobedient children, and it goes on and on. Though, Jesus in the New Testament did not teach any such thing. Otherwise I'd say the Bible is just as evil. Though the Bible surely has it's evil parts, it does not compare to the Quran. Beliefs, especially blind belief, can get us into a lot of trouble...
Abstract01 posted at 11:52 pm on Mon, May 14, 2012.
Here is a real question--when does interrogation become torture?
In police stations, detectives will use endless interrogations to determine the validity of information. TV shows portray the psychological games meant to persuade, daunt or otherwise force the detainee to divulge information.
There are many techniques to forcefully elicit information. Most of them are painful. Is waterboarding any different than sleep-deprivation or beating with a lead-filled sock? The difference between torture and interrogation, I believe, is in the humanity of the controller.
One of you described tortures done in previous centuries. What was the goal of these authorities? Did the priest truly care for the spiritual welfare of the victims? No, he wanted power and authority. He was deceived, and followed the master of lies. We can find various examples of the evil that has been done. Fortunately, we can also learn of men and women who directed their contemporaries toward goodness (Ghandi, Mother Teresa, et. al.).
Are there Americans that commit torture? I suspect that there are some who "enjoy" their work, just as some get a rush from cage fighting.
However, I believe that the great majority of our protective forces do their job well, and maintain their honor in a difficult task. More importantly, they help to keep our country safe from attacks and sabotage.
May God bless and guide them.
Slabside posted at 12:29 am on Tue, May 15, 2012.
Abstract01, very well said. [smile]
Stag_r_Lee posted at 3:36 am on Tue, May 15, 2012.
The United States is a member of the United Nations. Regarding participation in undeclared war(s), not only is the United States Government at odds with our sacred Constitution, the government is in conflict with protocols established in the Geneva Convention. Torturing folks by water boarding is only an outcome of a war that is, in the first place illegal. . Taking of foreign nationals who, had the war been legal, would have been protected by the Geneva Convention is a violation of international norms. Splicing and dicing the term "water boarding," given the gross illegalities that this government is mired in, is--in my view--a trip to Disney Land.
. . .
Who actually reads the Quran? Do Muslims read it? How many folks can read or write the language the book is written in? Is the translation reliable? Given that Christianity is fractured into hundreds of denominations, who can honestly say that all Muslims interpret the Quran in the same way? What about metaphors and other figures of speech? I mentioned earlier that factual evidence when brought to folks who want to focus on ethnicity, religion and other tribal factors gets translated as a threat--if you will--against the very soul. Religious zealots wants the U.S. Government to conduct foreign policy in accordance with THEIR interpretation of Muslim doctrine.
Stag_r_Lee posted at 3:49 am on Tue, May 15, 2012.
Note to Abstract01.
...
Not only is the way torture gets defined of concern, but the populations that end up being tortured are as well. Good to keep in mind:
"First they came for the Jews and I did not speak out because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists and I did not speak out because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists and I did not speak out because I was not a trade unionist."
Then they came for me and there was no one left to speak out for me."
...
If they torture innocent people that get picked up on the street, they will torture you!
k33j88 posted at 7:11 am on Tue, May 15, 2012.
Does anyone really expect a "sharia-compliant radical terrorist" to show compassion or mercy to his/her victims? Their 7th-century reasoning rules the day. Political correctness and multi-culturism need not apply. If you let a liberal extract information, then all we'll get is a sharia-compliant society.
openureyes posted at 11:10 am on Tue, May 15, 2012.
Firstly, I looked at Mr. Anderson's previous letter and the responses again, and can find no "liberal hatred and rhetoric." In fact, the only name-calling came from Slabside, who shares Mr. Anderson's views.
Secondly, the original letter presented three "facts," none of which proved waterboarding is not torture - only that Mr. Anderson believes it worked. Several commenters pointed this out. This follow-up letter also does nothing to prove it's not torture. Hopefully, he can see that being waterboarded as a controlled exercise, with no goal other than to have the subject know what it feels like, differs greatly from repeated waterboarding with no end in sight, with the goal of obtaining information.
But alas, he'll "never back down from (his) viewpoints." Logic and reason be d@mned - they must be just for liberals.
sockratties posted at 11:19 am on Tue, May 15, 2012.
Stag – Pastor Niemoller’s comment on his political apathy is one of my favorite’s and most appropriate here. Unfortunately it could be construed as either pro or con regarding torture.
I like to think of America as an example of higher standards. If terrorists change the way we think and the way we treat others, they’ve won! What terrorists hate about us is that we are a beacon that threatens their way of life. If we choose to forgo rule of law for expedience we lose the nobility and ethical quality we claim.
Sharia is the Arabic word for law. The Christian Old Testament, Jewish Torah and Islamic Koran have many components that support Sharia. Radicals have perverted their religion so it supports hate and violence. We can change our laws by interpreting them to meet our goals in the same way. Hitler managed to pervert the German constitution in only a few years, focusing on Jews and other minorities as scapegoats.
Waterboarding today, acid bath tomorrow; same method, different liquid. It’s just a small step.
Rational Human posted at 12:00 pm on Tue, May 15, 2012.
If waterboarding is torture then so is sleep deprivation because neither one results in any lasting physical damage. Is turning up the heat or lowering it to make the subject incredible uncomfortable torture? Some of you probably think feeding the Muslim terrorists nothing but pork is torture. Nothing short of 5 start hotel accommodations would please the progressive socialist that really thinks of the Muslim terrorist as a freedom fighter, fighting to end Yankee imperialism. Islam is a retarded religion that allows for child predation and spreading it's vile beliefs by force of arms. It is the enemy of everything Americans hold sacred and should be contained where ever it is found.
sockratties posted at 8:10 am on Wed, May 16, 2012.
Rat – re: “if you read the Quran from cover to cover”
Your information was cut and pasted directly from on-line blogs. I suggest you take your own advice instead of taking credit for your plagiarism. One could do the same hack job on the Old Testament if one wanted to. You could probably find that on-line too.
I have read the Quran which has less generations of translation than the KJV of the Bible, but not cover to cover. I found it to be too far out of current context to keep me interested.
The Quran was written down formally including translation into other dialects after Mohammed’s death. It is believed to be passed by the Angel Gabriel from God to Mohammed. The Quran is regarded by Islam as one of the divine messages, the first five being from God to Adam (the first prophet) followed by the Scrolls of Abraham, the Torah of Moses, the book of Psalms of David and the Gospel of Jesus.
We would do well by focusing our attention on terrorists and their perverse interpretation of sharia instead of wasting our energies hating all that is Islam.
Stag_r_Lee posted at 8:36 am on Wed, May 16, 2012.
Sockrattis,
There is, in my view, no down side to speaking out and condemning torture. Consider what happened during the Third Reich when Roehm was killed. (The Night of the Long Knives.) In that case, many officers who served Hitler as front line commanders were murdered. Many were tortured. No doubt, not a few of those officers were "good" Germans." Many, if not most, may not have spoken or plotted against Hitler; their names fell into Gestapo hands via torture. Put another way, the question was not whether an individual or a group happened to be an active or outspoken threat to the regime. The deciding factor has to do with the perception and purposes of those in power. Something similar happened in Stalin's Russia. Many of those killed or ended up in a gulags were loyal and important members of the Socialist Revolution; some were innocent foreigners whose only mistake was nothing more than showing up.
...
It is a well known fact that those who advocate torture often justify themselves by claiming to need--at any cost-- vital information. Is this true? In Chili, Argentina, etc. torture was employed to threaten, intimidate and above all SILENCE South American populations. That's exactly why beatings, electric shock, rape, water boarding, etc., etc., etc. was carried out in buildings located on public beaches or near crowded market places. (A number of the techniques employed during "interrogations" have been traced back to Field Manuals used by U.S. agencies.)Then, consider how members of the press are frequently arrested, tortured and killed? Again, my point: We are dealing with a tribal mentality. I am convinced that folks who advocate torture are either liars or fools; that is, they consciously work to frighten folks into accepting their closed racist, religious or ethnocentric world view. Otherwise they are individuals who have been seduced to believe wild claims such as being a member of a master race or God's chosen, etc. In that way, policies put in place by an errant and brutal regime may well operate counter to the well being and safety of the population, yet go unquestioned by a cowed populace.
...
Hence it is extremely important to vociferously oppose--at every opportunity-- the traitorous and unAmerican voices that are at work "softening up" the U.S. population. Water boarding is torture.
sockratties posted at 11:35 am on Wed, May 16, 2012.
stag -- I agree.
It's like the man said about porn...(to paraphrase) we may argue about the definition but we all know it when we see it.