In his column this Wednesday, Mike McClellen completely misses the point on class warfare. It is not a question of who is “winning”. The problem is that the contention even exists.
America became the greatest nation in history, and a shining light on a hill, because we are one united people. We did not achieve prosperity, liberty, security and happiness by dividing into groups and fostering resentment against those who are different.
Class warfare, like racial prejudice and religious bigotry, is corrosive and destructive to the worthy goals of a great society. In a more enlightened time, successful people were looked up to and admired. They were living evidence that we lived in a country where hard work and good character can bring rewards.
Now, sadly, the Mike McClellens of the world seek to denigrate those of greater accomplishment, and discourage those who would follow in their footsteps. I do not believe that such petty jealousies should be celebrated.
Don Carsten
Gilbert
listenertoo posted at 8:08 am on Mon, Nov 14, 2011.
Don, it appears you did not understand Mike's article.
Dale Whiting posted at 8:33 am on Mon, Nov 14, 2011.
Don,
Like "lisenertoo," I also assume you've missed Mike's point. I went back and re-read his piece and his several comments made to other commenters. Nowhere did I find Mike using the phrase "class warfare" or anything close to conflict between classes. Perhaps you read this thought into what he did say. But I did not.
So please explain why you think Mike addresses any "point on class warfare." For as you conclude if "It is not a question of who is “winning”. The problem is that the contention even exists," how can you accuse Mike of having a problem?
Cerulean posted at 9:58 am on Mon, Nov 14, 2011.
Don,
Ditto the previous commenters and; the entire history of the U.S. including the current debate over immigration is entirely about “dividing into groups and fostering resentment against those who are different”. That is the whole and substance of American history. Did you forget the millions of Native Americans who were force from their resource rich land, the Civil War over wealth and slavery, the Mexican American War again a land/mineral grab that favored only a few.
Is your world so ‘happily enlightened’ that you can no longer see the distress in those without jobs, security or liberty?
Wealth equality is worth working for, for it is that which determines “good character”.
Leon Ceniceros posted at 3:55 pm on Mon, Nov 14, 2011.
Somebody turn the kitchen light off...we all know that these Liberal commenters are hiding in the "dark" waiting to scurry out when the "Light of Truth" is turned on.
Why should some one who excells at anything, be it, finance, love, military achievement, educational achievement, fame...be "forced" be "taxed" or anything to lessen this achievement?
The "people" that want to "punish" Americans that have excelled in life do not understand what America stands for. Just like the "people" (I wouldn't dignify them by addressing them as "Citizens"...they are not worthy of that honorific in my estimation) who are advocating the "Utah Compact", Jeff Flake's "S.T.R.I.V.E. Act", Obama's "Dream Act"...any form of ....ILLEGAL ALIEN AMNESTY = have either lost any sense of Patriotism or never had a sense of Patriotism in the first place.
I can only guess that when "people" do not feel that "their" young men should be in the US Military defending their Nation not only in peace time... but more importantly ...during times of War = they do not feel that Citizenship, that National Identity, that Love of America is what being an "American" is all about.
Thank you, Don Carsten for having the "where-with-alls" to put you name to this Letter to the Editor. So many "people" in the East Valley hide behind "icons", "cutsy emiticons" and other pseudonyms and labels. It's comforting to know that there are other "Citizens" who love our Nation and will "fight" for America.
concernedcitizen posted at 7:52 pm on Mon, Nov 14, 2011.
Ditto to the first three comments, and to Leon, I don't think most people are against someone succeeding or excelling. Achievement, being better and faster and more advanced than the rest of the world sets us apart from the world in all aspects (or at least it has up to this point). We want to encourage creativity and foster success, because it helps to build all people.
I think what most people are against is HOW these business CEO's have "climbed the ladder of success." Many if not most seem to have walked all over people and made their supposed success on the backs of hard-working individuals (individuals who make up what makes America truly great). Most companies tend to pay less and less and give less and less benefits in order to make more and more profits. Why, for example, have Exxon-Mobil and other oil companies made record profits almost every year in the last 4 years (particularly when the rest of us were feeling the weight of the recession)? I get the desire to want more money, however when you start to love it more than you care for the people working for you, you have a problem.
There have been posts on Facebook about how in other industrialized nations, the pay ratio of CEO's to the average salary is somewhere between 19:1 and 50:1, then the post goes on to show American CEO pay compared to the average American salary as 457:1. In doing further research, it is actually closer to 185:1. That means for every dollar that you and I earn, the average CEO earns $185. So for an "average" American earning $40,000 a year to feed their family, the average CEO earns (and I use that term loosely) $7,400,000. Wow, that could totally pay off my house 37 times for 1 year's salary. It will take me 30 years to pay off my house and I'll pay twice what it was worth when I bought it (so 4 times more than it is worth currently).
Remember that most CEO's aren't "successful" because of honest dealings. Look how many recalls of products there are now, even (and especially) in the toy producing businesses. Look at Enron and other examples of dishonest behavior in business. Look at how many products we buy nowadays that break even under warranty, or last "just after the warranty expires," and then (conveniently) we have to buy another of that product, or the next "upgraded model." Nothing is built with integrity it seems like it was back in the olden days. And because life is so fast-paced, we discard so much that is barely a year old because we always want the "newer, faster, better" "right now."
By the way Leon, nice trying to put your 2 cents in on illegal amnesty again...too bad the article didn't mention that...it mentioned racial prejudice which is an entirely different topic...but I digress...
One last comment, America did become great not because of separating into groups and fostering resentment, but dividing itself from the rest of the world and believing in "one nation under God," and by following correct principles insofar as we understand them, and then by helping others to see those principles and giving them opportunities to live them. This nation became great because as a people who believe in and trust God we believe in helping our fellow human beings (hence where so many of our foreign policies come from where we send billions in aid to other countries, particularly the more disadvantaged). Now, there are not perfect moments in our history, far from it, but there are plenty of moments where we tried to do the right thing. Unfortunately in today's "its-all-about-me" society, everyone is so focused on what is in it for them that we forget to think about others. Thank goodness for the Christmas season coming up where at least once a year many of us remember how important giving to others is. (And, yes, I brought up Christmas in November...)
Leon Ceniceros posted at 11:21 pm on Mon, Nov 14, 2011.
Wow..........46 lines of comments but how about having the "with-with-alls" to sign you name on them ???
The author of this Letter to the Editor, Don Carsten, signed his name.
I sign my name to my Letters to the Editor and my comments.
Sheriff Joe signs his name, Senator Russell Pearce signed his name, Sheriff Paul Babeu signs his name, Governor Jan Brewer signs her name........why are so many Liberal-Progressive-Socialist-Democrats afraid to sign their name to anything........all it takes is a stroke of the pen (or a couple key strokes) and some...........GUTS ! ! !
Rodini posted at 5:57 am on Tue, Nov 15, 2011.
Leon, clueless as always.
I've had 20- "progressive thinking"- Letters to the Editor published in the past 5-6 months and my name has been signed at the bottom of every one.
Your generalizations clearly show you don't hear before you open your mouth to whine!
Dale Whiting posted at 8:05 am on Tue, Nov 15, 2011.
Leon,
It's time to give up! My gosh, its now five to your one, six of we count Don. Have you ever been this far out on that limb of your? Not to my recollection!
Leon Ceniceros posted at 9:18 am on Tue, Nov 15, 2011.
I am proud to go out on any limb to defend "American values".
I guess that's something that Liberal-Progressive-Socialist-Democrats just can't understand.
I don't know what word they just can't grasp...."American"....or....."values"....or both.
But, that is what makes our Country so great...that from the very beginning, our American Military Men and Women have served their Nation in both Peacetime and in times of War...they have sacrificed their lives, their wellbeing to allow others who took deferrments for college and their religion not to put their lives on the line for America....and now...others who want to change America from a Land of Opportunity through hard work and enterprise.... to a Socialist-Communist Welfare State like Cuba or Venezuela where people that work "hard" are taxed to death to support people that "hardly" work.
So, yes, I will write letters and comments that support first and foremost the "American Way of Life"...irregardless of how many others out there who put their Church or Denomination allegiance or their "World/Village/Socialist values" first and foremost.
sockratties posted at 11:06 am on Tue, Nov 15, 2011.
I must’ve read a different commentary from McClellen on Wednesday than Don Carsten. I thought Mike was talking about some folks having tunnel vision and personal agendas when doing politics. I missed the class warfare slant.
The issue is not about taking from the rich and giving to the poor, it’s about equal opportunity. It’s about not manipulating the financial system, not deregulating greedy corporations, not providing tax loop-holes to get votes, not governing the country by catering to special interests. It’s about not taking wealth from the country for accumulation by a few but by putting it into the system where everyone, even the wealthy, benefit.
Education in one tool that can create a near level playing field. Anyone who thinks the child of a working family who are at or near the poverty line has the same opportunity as the child of a wealthy family hasn’t noticed that the cost of tuition has more than doubled since year 2000 while the need for a college degree has become ever more essential. Many used to be priced out of higher cost Ivy League schools but public state colleges have always, until now, been accessible to almost everyone. In-state tuitions are several thousand dollars a semester; prohibitive to many hard working families. Every child eliminated from our U. S. education system is one more that won’t be competing with the child from China or India or Japan. Our national greed is cannibalizing our national future.
As for class warfare, it has always existed in this country. It’s the battle between the haves and the have-nots. Every new immigrant group was derided and resented. The Irish and Italians both were booed and stoned when they came off the ship at our port of entry. Chinese who were invited to provide labor when our railroads were being built were shunned and segregated, slaves were considered less than human, and Japanese were forced into concentration camps while Germans and Italians, also enemies in WWII were not. It’s easier to target those minorities who look different than those who don’t. The disparity between the rich and poor continues to grow as the middle class is being eroded. If anyone thinks class discrepancy has been eliminated they are poorly informed.
As for class warfare… There’s only one fan here, read the comments. His comments indicate he thrives on it. Somehow he managed to get illegal aliens, those in the service, the Mormon Church, President Obama, commenter handles, and Liberal-Progressive-Socialist-Democrats into his hate speech. When one selects himself as the sole determinant of what “American Values” are, that’s just the American way, and it never has been.
Dale Whiting posted at 6:51 pm on Tue, Nov 15, 2011.
Leon [and by inference, Don]
"Defend American Values!" For Heaven's sake, go back and re-read Mike's piece. Now the count is six to two. And the limb you two are out on is not the limb of American or even Family Values. It's your insanity! Six of us think you two are out on the limb of insanity! For your own sakes, get help, help in reading if not help in reasoning. Mike's piece was liked by all but you two! This is not about values. It's about reading and understanding Mike's piece. And clearly Don and Leon cannot read and understand.
concernedcitizen posted at 10:53 pm on Tue, Nov 15, 2011.
Leon, for the record, I am a conservative Republican. Second, my wife and I have done foster care for several children and have also adopted several children, whose birth parents are not safe people, and I would rather not have my name, which they know, to be out there for everyone to view, because it would pose a potential safety hazard for the children we are trying to help recover from a formally abusive and neglectful situation. Any contact, formal or informal, from any of these people would do almost irreparable harm and undo all we've worked hard for for several years with these children because of the emotional trauma it would cause. Does that explain better why I don't have my real name listed? Before we started foster care, I always signed my names in my letters to the editor.
Also, what better way to uphold American values than to help children in need. I'm not patting myself on the back, just know there are hundreds of parents out there that also help save children and give them great hope for their future, which is also the future of this great Nation. Whoever discussed education above is correct as well, it is crucial in providing opportunity for people to pull themselves out of the slums.
Leon, obviously you are bent on saying whatever you can about the LDS Church. I am a member of that church, and not once was anything mentioned over the pulpit that made me think the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is "pro-illegal-amnesty." What I heard from the church leaders was that the law of the land needs to be followed, and while state and federal governments hash out how that is to happen, we need to still try to be civil and respectful to each other as human beings through all of this. I think, from a church which teaches people to be more civilized and more Christian, that that is a completely legitimate response. If anyone in the church "just wants more converts" on their rolls, they are definitely the exception and not the rule. I'm sorry that your interactions with the LDS Church have been such that you feel so negatively towards the church and have to vent your feelings in every forum. I want you to know, from my experiences, this has never been the case, and again, I am sorry that your experiences have been different.
I'm growing tired of Republicans who will "fight to the death" for a politician who, while in his/her prime, may have done a lot of great things but do not see the forest for the trees. The article that was posted today about Pearce saying it is not the Mesa he grew up in is right on I think with what the author mentions. A politician is a public servant, and as such should find out the will of the people, and inasmuch as it is practical, vote for the wishes of the people. He did not do that the last couple of years, and that is why I did not vote for him in the recall election. I did a lot of heavy thinking before voting and my decision switched back and forth a couple of times before I finally came to a conclusion, but through all of that SB1070 was not even a consideration for me. It was how out of touch he is with the will of the people and how much people want our politicians to be focused on jobs, the economy, etc.
It seems that so-called Republicans like yourself that claim to "uphold American values" talk the way you do because you fear you are fighting a losing battle, you recognize deep down that something you are fighting for is wrong, and as such you decide to use the truths involved ("American values", etc.) to push your unclear thinking because it will mean at least some truth is involved in your argument.
By the way, there are a lot more Mormons then you think who have served in the military, there are 3 in my immediate family and I have several extended relatives who have served as well, all Mormon. I did not, however, I chose the path of a teacher (insert Leon comment about how I dodged military service) however if World War III happened and all men had to be called up to help, I would gladly go in a heartbeat, because I believe with all my heart in what America is truly about, and I am willing to defend the principles we live by.
Leon, please feel free to tell me how many lines I created with my response here...I don't usually like to tease people, but I feel your rants are not based on full truth, and I actually feel sorry that you keep pulpit pounding your religion of "Pearce is equal to God", "anyone not pro-SB1070 is not an American" and "all Mormons are pro-illegal-amnesty." But I also am aware that nothing I say will change your mind on these points. I can only hope I have created more awareness with you (and others) and given you an opportunity to ponder a point or two you have not pondered yet.
Dale Whiting posted at 1:10 am on Thu, Nov 17, 2011.
Leon,
With "concernedcitizen" the count is now seven. Although my motive to question Pearce's actions grew out of practically undisputable concerns for SB1070's constitutionality, as things developed, I too saw this major disconnect with the electorate, amplified by those dirty tricks his own Mormon family played for him.
Where we Mormon's believe in obeying, honoring and sustaining the law, many of us got the impression that Pearce believed in making laws no one felt deserved obedience. Law makers who become above the law must be removed from office. So happily Pearce was removed.
The principle is described in the Book of Mormon. The most perfect form of government is that which is lead by a righteous king. But where power corrupts, as it appears to have corrupted Pearce, a democratic form of government where people get to pick the leaders based upon demonstrated morals is preferable. Normally citizens will pick the right politicians.
Pearce lost citizen confidence, so out he went. Perhaps it's time for Pearce and his family to re-examine their motives. Boy, I would not want to be his Bishop!