If President Obama truly considers President Abe Lincoln to be his role model, he flat out ignored one of Lincoln's famous speeches given on Jan. 27, 1838 at the Young Men's Lyceum of Springfield, Ill. Lincoln said, "Let every American, every lover of liberty, every well-wisher to his posterity, swear by the blood of the revolution, never to violate in the least particularly, the laws of the country and never to tolerate their violation of others."
Thus, not only do President Obama and his followers ignore these words, they also don't comprehend the word "illegal" and they refute the rule of law.
Poor President Lincoln rolling over in his grave saying, "Why me God" and Obama replying, "Who me?"
Rick Rivard, Chandler
(Editor's note: Date of Lyceum speech has been corrected from original letter)
Dale Whiting posted at 9:58 am on Wed, Sep 28, 2011.
Rick,
Looks like our esteemed editors failed to correct your date. Where Abraham Lincoln was assassinated in 1865, he was long since dead 73 years later in 1938. And in 1838 he was still a struggling attorney and Illinois politician.
But the thought you bring is still wrong. What facts would you assert to jump to the conclusion that either Barack Obama, himself a constitutional law professor and editor of his Harvard Law Review, or his supporters have violated any laws? Sure we have illegal aliens. But even George W Bush and Rick Perry advocate for comprehensive immigration reform to help solve the problems created by our being the apple of the eye of so many less fortunate who find in necessary to circumvent our immigration laws to earn a livelihood and avoid having their families starve. We call such people who sympathize with these illegals compassionate human beings, not law breakers. And a list of such compassionate leaders from the past include Gandhi and Jesus of Nazareth. Clearly your name will never be on that list!
VofReason posted at 12:55 pm on Wed, Sep 28, 2011.
Obama will be a footnote in history. Lincoln one of the best and noted US Presidents. No comparison.
Arizona Willie posted at 1:03 pm on Wed, Sep 28, 2011.
Dale, Mexico has a thriving middle class. There are daily flights from Mexico City to Las Vegas.
There are three classes of illegals from Mexico ( not looking at other countries right now -- just Mexico).
You have the complete out and out criminals .. drug smugglers, immigrant smuggler etc. etc.
Then there are some poor people who didn't get an education, much the same as our high school drop outs. They are the ones you see at Home Depot etc. looking for manual labor.
And then, you have skilled immigrants such as dental hygenists, accountants, chemists etc. etc. etc.
They are actually the bulk of the illegals but invisible, in most cases, because they are out of sight in an office or factory. They don't stand on the street corners soliciting work.
They come because they can make more here than at home.
They weren't starving at home. But they can make more here.
Ex a dental hygenist can get $18 a day in Mexico but $18 an hour here. But they live decently on their wage at home.
So they come for greed.
The U.S. has NO duty to let any of those people come here and work.
They DO NOT come for freedom or democracy or because of political persecution.
Many of our corporations have exported the jobs they can and even advertise ( subtly ) in countries south of the border in order to import cheaper labor. There are recruiters in Mexico looking for skilled people and they arrange for them to have a job waiting for them if they can get here.
Even some manual labor outfits do it. Tyson got burned for it but I would wager they still do it. Meat packing plants are infamous for doing that.
They teach English in schools and many speak better English then we do --- if they want to.
The Mexican government encourages people to illegally come here. It brings money and gets rid of a lot of poor people and a lot of dissatisfied people who might start a revolt.
And our businesses encourage them to come.
Western Union makes a fortune sending money south of the border. At one time there was a movement to make it illegal to send money south but their lobbiests made sufficient " campaign contributions " to the proper Congress critters and killed that.
There is a correlation between the number of illegals and the number of unemployed citizens.
The uneducated ones take low level positions that used to be held by kids just out of school and / or summer jobs etc.
The skilled ones take jobs away from lower to middle class Americans.
The U.S. has NO OBLIGATION to allow these people to invade and take work and social services.
There is no reason to feel sorry for them. The uneducated are uneducated by their own decision just like our kids who drop out. Tough noogies -- go home and go to school.
The skilled ones you might call white collar thieves taking jobs from accountants and many other positions.
And the criminals -- well why should we give them anything other than a bullet?
Dale Whiting posted at 2:21 pm on Wed, Sep 28, 2011.
Willie,
Let's count and identify your numerous categories:
1) criminals . Not doubt we have criminals following the lead of Willy Horton. Willy robbed banks because that was where the money was. And compared to Mexico, we are where the money is. No dispute here. But you conclude "why should we give them anything other than a bullet?" Are you working for Sheriff Arpaio?
2) poor people who didn't get an education, standing around town looking for work. I characterize these together with those who work in rural areas picking oranges, lettuce and strawberrys. Some used to grow corn in their own fields in Mexico but our subsidized corn production robbed them of work. No dispute here.
3) skilled immigrants. I went to graduate school with some skilled students who were hoping to become immigrants. Are you inferring that most of these cannot apply for citizenship and become illegal. You maintain that "They are actually the bulk of the illegals but invisible." Do you have authority to support this assertion? Further you assert that "So they come for greed." Support? We have over 15 million illegals here. Are you asserting that more than 5 million are skilled immigrants?
What about the adult children of the above three groups. Some have come with families, some have had children born here, other not? Did you forget about these?
Regardless, the issue being discussed here is not sympathy for illegals but the mischaracterization of certain officials as criminals. Are you maintaining that American officials are cooperating with those recruiters south of the border who you claim are syphoning illegals here? Sources if you please!
RationalHuman posted at 2:41 pm on Wed, Sep 28, 2011.
Dale, the date isn't the only obvious error the esteemed editors "ingored".
As for the article's innaccuracy, the most glaring (besides the date screwup) is the last line "Poor President Lincoln rolling over in his grave saying, "Why me God".
Lincoln was nonreligious and didn't believe in any gods. Please stop slandering one of our greatest presidents, thank you.
RationalHuman posted at 2:46 pm on Wed, Sep 28, 2011.
And speaking of innaccuracies, DALE WHITING:
"a list of such compassionate leaders from the past include Gandhi and Jesus of Nazareth."
You mean Mahatma Ghandi, the Indian racist who referred to the blacks of Africa as "kafirs"...and this Jesus of Nazareth...would that be the same Jesus that threatened entire cities that didn't want to hear him preach with fire and destruction?
For shame Dale, you should know better.
Will_Travel posted at 4:10 pm on Wed, Sep 28, 2011.
Obama should pay attention to the words of William John Henry Boetcker, often incorrectly attributed to Lincoln:
* You cannot bring about prosperity by discouraging thrift.
* You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong.
* You cannot help little men by tearing down big men.
* You cannot lift the wage earner by pulling down the wage payer.
* You cannot help the poor by destroying the rich.
* You cannot establish sound security on borrowed money.
* You cannot further the brotherhood of man by inciting class hatred.
* You cannot keep out of trouble by spending more than you earn.
* You cannot build character and courage by destroying men's initiative and independence.
* You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they can and should do for themselves.
Cerulean posted at 5:07 pm on Wed, Sep 28, 2011.
You are correct Dale Whiting, Abraham was still an attorney when he wrote the Lyceum Address:
“At what point shall we expect the approach of danger? By what means shall we fortify against it?-- Shall we expect some transatlantic military giant, to step the Ocean, and crush us at a blow? Never!. . . . I answer, if it ever reach us, it must spring up amongst us. It cannot come from abroad. If destruction be our lot, we must ourselves be its author and finisher. . . . .
Turn, then, to the horror-striking scene . . . A mulatto man, by the name of McIntosh, was seized in the street, dragged to the suburbs of the city, chained to a tree, and actually burned to death; and all within a single hour from the time he had been a freeman, attending to his own business, and at peace with the world. . . . .
But you are, perhaps, ready to ask, "What has this to do with the perpetuation of our political institutions?" I answer, it has much to do with it. Its direct consequences are, comparatively speaking, but a small evil; and much of its danger consists, in the proneness of our minds, to regard its direct, as its only consequences.. . . .
The question recurs, "how shall we fortify against it?" The answer is simple. Let every American, every lover of liberty, every well wisher to his posterity, swear by the blood of the Revolution, never to violate in the least particular, the laws of the country; and never to tolerate their violation by others.”
That is my abridged version.
So- we see here that Abraham refers to a ‘mob lynching’ of a mulatto man as not the way toward “liberty”. That “liberty” is best achieved through the auspices of the rule of law.
Rick Rivard, please let us know how President Barack Obama is not a man of liberty and the rule of law?
I think Old Abe would be very proud of Barack.
Cerulean posted at 5:13 pm on Wed, Sep 28, 2011.
Here is a quote by Lincoln that I think fits the Know Nothing Tea Party very well. Just to review, the Know Nothings were a faction of the Republican Party at its inception that formed as a reaction to the “unprecedented flood of immigration in the 1840’s and 1850’s. . . .The Know-Nothings fought to delay citizenship for the new immigrants and bar them from voting.”
Abraham Lincoln said in reference to the Know-Nothings,
“Our progress in degeneracy appears to me to be pretty rapid. As a nation, we began by declaring that ‘all men are created equal.’ . . . When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read ‘all men are created equal, except negroes, and foreigners, and Catholics.’ When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretence of loving liberty –“
From Team of Rivals by Doris Kearns Goodwin pg. 180-181 ppb
Slabside posted at 6:13 pm on Wed, Sep 28, 2011.
@RationalHuman, "Lincoln was nonreligious and didn't believe in any gods."
As usual, you are wrong. The Gettysburg Address contains, "that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom".
Sorry to burst your God hating bubble but Lincoln was a God fearing president.
Cerulean posted at 8:08 pm on Wed, Sep 28, 2011.
“Lincoln was a God fearing president”
Lincoln had nothing to fear from God, he was an honorable man.
And if you really knew, even a smidgen about Abraham Lincoln, you would know that he revered Shakespeare above all and paid patronage to the theater far more than any other service offered, to God or otherwise.
Slabside posted at 8:29 pm on Wed, Sep 28, 2011.
Cerulean, you obviously have no idea what "God fearing" means. What a sap.
Cerulean posted at 8:56 am on Thu, Sep 29, 2011.
You, Slab “must fear the LORD your God and worship him and cling to him.” Deuteronomy 10:20 NLT
Poor child.
CSalafia posted at 11:34 am on Thu, Sep 29, 2011.
Slab is right on this one. "Fear" used the sense of "fear the Lord" is not equivalent to "be afraid of". It's reverence.
RationalHuman posted at 12:15 pm on Thu, Sep 29, 2011.
It seems all Slabside has to do to showcase his ignorance and lack of education is post a comment! How said and pathetic.
First off, stop lying constantly, it makes you look like a slimy little weasel.
I don't hate your god...I don't hate leprechauns, either.
Now, PAY ATTENTION and learn something about our 16th President - these are HIS WORDS:
"The Bible is not my book nor Christianity my profession"
"When I do good, I feel good. When I do bad, I feel bad. THAT is my religion."
"The only person who is a worse liar than a faith healer is his patient."
And perhaps the best (it has big words so Slabside may not understand)
"My earlier views of the unsoundness of the Christian scheme of salvation and the human origin of the scriptures, have become clearer and stronger with advancing years and I see no reason for thinking I shall ever change them."
Darn those old FACTS getting in the way of Slabside!
Slabside posted at 12:18 pm on Thu, Sep 29, 2011.
Exactly. Thank you CSal.
RationalHuman posted at 3:32 pm on Thu, Sep 29, 2011.
Funny (and VERY telling) that Slabside missed the comments exposing his ignorance, but can see the other comments just fine.
I think he uses the same tactic when reading his holy book (memorize the parts you like, ignore the rest). ;)
RationalHuman posted at 3:40 pm on Thu, Sep 29, 2011.
Of course CSalafia, you should ALWAYS fear those you revere.
(and people still ask why I think religion is utterly insane!)
JSBeals posted at 3:40 pm on Thu, Sep 29, 2011.
I think, "Poor President Lincoln rolling over in his grave saying," 'I was alive in 1938?'
More seriously to the issue that RationalHuman always seems to jump on which is the mention of God or Christianity. However, in my own humble opinion on the question of Lincoln's faith - sadly I do not think he was a Christian, but probably a believer in a deity without a personal relationship. I think he was a tormented man for many many reasons, but it is not clear what his faith was on the last day of his life.
RationalHuman posted at 6:13 pm on Thu, Sep 29, 2011.
" the issue that RationalHuman always seems to jump on which is the mention of God or Christianity"
JSBeals - I have, and will continue to point out and expose ignorant bigotry whenever I encounter it...whether it's related to gender, nationality, skin color...or religion.
The reason you seem to think I only "jump" on one of those is because, in this editorial forum, only one of those is considered acceptable. The rest are properly considered prejudiced...hopefully ALL of these forms of ignorant bigotry will be exposed as such in my lifetime.
And JS, I am genuinely curious - would you have called Rosa Parks out and accused her of "jumping" all over white people...or does your hypocrisy begin and end with religion?
JSBeals posted at 8:35 pm on Thu, Sep 29, 2011.
Rational – I’m puzzled by the message you are trying to communicate in this forum – for that I am ignorant. I certainly see hypocrisy in religion, but not everything about faith is hypocritical. I am clearly lost on the Rosa Parks reference pertaining to religion – are you the “Rosa Parks” in your scenario? If so, I must say to you – you are not even close. I read your comments and your anger is palpable, but you do not make a case for whatever it is that angers you other than you don’t like it when God is mentioned. You mention bigotry which is the intolerance for a belief that differs from your own, which is exactly what you are doing with religion and people of faith, isn’t it?
pnutman posted at 10:04 pm on Thu, Sep 29, 2011.
Dale--Editor not in error, it was the "hunt n pecker's" ERROR....1838 correct and in addition, author erred by not indicating that Lincoln WAS a LAWYER when that "quote" was made...In sum, appears that it is your contention that the LAW on ILLEGAL ALIENS, and all the words and music in support of the law, you feel that "BO" is enforcing the "RULE of LAW" on the subject. If assumption is correct
than we definitely need to have the Medical Mary Jane establishments OPENED for similiar followers RIGHT NOW...."BO" is pandering or pimping for votes m'thinks.
RationalHuman posted at 7:50 am on Fri, Sep 30, 2011.
JSBeals wrote: "You mention bigotry which is the intolerance for a belief that differs from your own, which is exactly what you are doing with religion and people of faith, isn’t it?"
Are you being this obtuse on purpose? Please, by all means, point out a comment of mine where I attack religion or a belief in one or more gods. And don't use any comments that are responses to ignorant bigotry...say, for example, slandering an ex-President who can no longer defend himself.
If the author of this artile (and the commenter Slabside) had slandered Lincoln in some other way BESIDES religion...claiming he was gay, or a racist, etc., would you still find it acceptable? Because it's all the same to me.
Cerulean posted at 7:56 am on Fri, Sep 30, 2011.
“ I think he was a tormented man for many many reasons,”
I think it takes a very special brand of “torment” to achieve great things in this world.
JSBeals posted at 10:42 am on Fri, Sep 30, 2011.
Rational - I think when you use the term "slander" or "bigotry" in this case, you are being a bit dramatic. Lincoln invoked the name of God many times, even in the months before his death. We do not know where his heart was at the time of his death. And many often question their faith during their lives; it is likely Lincoln was no different. The anguish he went through during his Presidency was more than a lesser man could ever bear, I can only surmise that he might have turned to the Almighty to find comfort and strength. How is speculation on Lincoln's faith bigoted or slanderous?
"...point out a comment of mine where I attack religion..." Example: "(and people still ask why I think religion is utterly insane!)", is that not an attack on religion?
RationalHuman posted at 12:05 pm on Fri, Sep 30, 2011.
"How is speculation on Lincoln's faith bigoted or slanderous?"
It isn't...but I didn't see nor respond to any speculation, I responded to statements of fact that were unsubstantiated. But you're right, it's not slanderous...when in print, it's libel.
Example: "(and people still ask why I think religion is utterly insane!)", is that not an attack on religion?
No, it is not. Would my explaining how the earth is an oblate spheroid that orbits the sun be an attack on Flat Earthers? No, and for the same reasons.
Exposing unpleasant and/or unpopular truths about something isn't an attack on anything except deceit and dishonesty.
JSBeals posted at 12:48 pm on Fri, Sep 30, 2011.
Rational - You do attack commenters for their faith - you are not "explaining". Go back and re-read your posts just on this thread. You seem very self-rightous in your beliefs just as many religious people. And you haven't "exposed" anything "unpleasant or upopular truths". However, I would encourage you to keep looking for the truth.
RationalHuman posted at 1:11 pm on Fri, Sep 30, 2011.
"You seem very self-rightous in your beliefs just as many religious people."
Okay, now you're just being dishonest. What beliefs have I been self-righteous about? In fact, please show where I ever even STATED a belief for that matter.
"And you haven't "exposed" anything "unpleasant or upopular truths"
I would agree, these things are common knowledge...but people always seem to be in shock and disbelief (no pun intended) over the exposition of facts about religious belief...and many even get hateful (another thing you falsely accused me of) over the simple fact that their beliefs are not in any way based on factual sources.
I'm glad to hear that you feel I haven't done the exposing...since that was already done years ago by people far more educated than you or me.
"I would encourage you to keep looking for the truth."
I would encourage you to do the same, along with some advice: you won't find any universal truths by perusing through Bronze Age mythology., just Insights into humans living at the time.
JSBeals posted at 2:23 pm on Fri, Sep 30, 2011.
Rational - I have never called you "hateful" and don't know that you are - you seem more angry than hateful. I am not being dishonest about my opinion that you seem to be self-righteous -- I try to use a qualifier such as "seem" indicating my opinion rather than a statement of fact. You have projected a belief that there is no God. That is a belief.
Who are these people that are always in "shock and disbelief" over the exposition of religious facts? Most people in the world and even more in the US have some sort of a belief in God-- I have seen figures of between 83% to 92% in the US. And who are these "educated" people that have done the exposing? While many scientists do not believe in God because of the proof factor, there are many scientists that do because of intricacies of life, earth and the universe have led them to believe in a Creator rather than happenstance. Most astronauts who have flown in space believe in God.
I didn't like our previous president's policies, but the majority did, not once, but twice in elections -- some things we have to accept as much as we don't like to. Because we live in a country where most do believe in God, you should accept the fact that you are in the minority on this issue. I am truly sorry that you have been treated hatefully by those professing to believe in God.
RationalHuman posted at 3:31 pm on Fri, Sep 30, 2011.
"whatever it is that angers you"
KSBeal - Angry, hateful...sorry, I don't play semantics.
"You have projected a belief that there is no God. That is a belief."
KSBeal, YOU are projecting that belief onto me. Please stop, thanks.
I've never made any such claim.
"Most people in the world and even more in the US have some sort of a belief in God"
If you say so...according to the latest Gallup Poll, 40% of adult Americans believe Joan of Arc was Noah's wife...did these numbers have a point?
"a Creator rather than happenstance"
Okay, STOP BEING AN IDIOT. Please.
The choices aren't "gods or happenstance" - and if you think they are, please, go back to school.
"you should accept the fact that you are in the minority on this issue."
I have, and do.
You don't see other hate groups attacking minorites - not without serious repercussions. Once again I am reminded of Rosa Parks - another minority.
"I am truly sorry that you have been treated hatefully by those professing to believe in God."
Me too! But it's not just me, anyone and everyone is affected by the ignorant decisions these people make.
RationalHuman posted at 3:36 pm on Fri, Sep 30, 2011.
"some things we have to accept as much as we don't like to."
Tell that to the members of the Arizona Legislature who are crafting laws based, at least in part, on their belief that the world is 6,000 years old. And this isn't hypothetical, just Google "Arizona State Senator Sylvia Allen" - she's one of them.
JSBeals posted at 8:28 am on Sat, Oct 1, 2011.
Rational - You do play semantics. I believe my observations on you are pretty accurate. You do seem angry -- hateful and angry are two different things. But maybe you are hateful because you keep coming back to that word. You have projected a belief there is no God and that those who do believe in God are ignorant, or such a belief is mythical. You hide behind your implications and then pretend you never made such claims. You also seem to enjoy making yourself a victim when it is you who are quick call others names - "idiot" "slimey" "ignorant". In no way are you or your ideals similar to Rosa Parks'. You chastise others for not answering your questions when you do not answer questions which is hypotcritical, isn't it? You are an actor (not in the Hollywood sense but in the hypocrite sense) trying to tear into the beliefs of others, not to win them over to your side or to offer them a clear view of your ideals and beliefs, but for ridicule for your own arrogant pleasure. I do feel sorry for you because you seem to be searching for an answer in all the wrong places, when it is right in front of you. I do hope you find it.
A_Rose_By_Any_Other_Name posted at 10:23 am on Sat, Oct 1, 2011.
Obozo grew up on Black Liberation Theology and is a socialist. His vision for America parallels such immortals as Castro, Mao, Stalin, Lenin, and other despicable commies of yesterday. That he would try to reinvent history to mold the future was well documented in the book, 1984. That is his true vision of hope and change.
RationalHuman posted at 2:54 pm on Mon, Oct 3, 2011.
JSBeals lied:
"You have projected a belief there is no God"
You are a slimy ignorant idiot...and a liar.
(there, did I use all the words you accused me of? Didn't want to expose more than one lie per comment)
I just love how dishonest little weasels can keep making the same false claims over and over and over without a SHRED of support. Reminds me of something...but if I say WHAT it reminds me of, JSBeals will accuse me of attacking again.
RationalHuman posted at 2:57 pm on Mon, Oct 3, 2011.
JSBeals, I notice you were strangely silent on the YEC issue...
...are you a YEC?
That would explain EVERYTHING! LOL