Video: On the "Mark" for May 5, 2012 read more
Tribune contributing columnist Mark Scarp shares his opinion on issues in the East Valley. Read his column in Sunday's East Valley Tribune.
Scarp: Innocent victims of one ruled by hate
Tribune contributing columnist Mark Scarp shares his opinion on issues in the East Valley. Read his column in Sunday's East Valley Tribune.
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aluap posted at 6:30 pm on Sat, May 5, 2012.
this just shows how messed up our political system is. a man stealing a loaf of bread for his family would be in jail...yet this known monster was out walking the streets of arizona and this is allowed. where was the sheriff while these innocent people were dying? the american justice system is not working and because of politics people are dying in vain. need to get rid of people like JA (sheriff)
Rich posted at 7:57 pm on Sat, May 5, 2012.
I'm not going to win any popularity contests with this one. And I do want to state that. since the philosophy would call my children, and grandchildren inferior, I don't agree with it, I still take issue with "White supremacy by its nature is a creed of fear, paranoia and hatred that leads to all kinds of bizarre justifications." This is the kind of censorship, denigration and nonsense that causes people like Mr. Ready and others such as Mr.Breivik in Norway.It is a valid cultural anthropological hypothesis. Read someone like Madison Grant, and refute him logically, rationally without emotion. Since WWII, since the losing side accepted it, it has been pushed into a corner, not discussed, not subject to dialectic, only denigration and censorship. Because it has, things like Mr. Scarp has written has had as much or more to do with people like Mr. Ready as the philosophy. I'm not defending the philosophy, in fact I've lived for the last forty years proving it false. Discuss it, make it normal, before you push another nutball into a corner, and my children pay the price. If you continue to push it into a corner, it's just starting to bite.
Slabside posted at 9:08 pm on Sat, May 5, 2012.
Rich, I concur. Well said.
Cerulean posted at 9:48 pm on Sat, May 5, 2012.
This is a good column Mark. Mr. Ready was a loose cannon and while I sympathize for his girlfriend and her family it may be a good thing that Mr. Ready is gone. I have also read that he was part of a vigilante group who regularly spent time near the US/Mexican border hunting people.
Rich,
I am confused by your comment. Are you suggesting that Ready did not have a voice, even a following in Arizona? He certainly had the ear of Russell Pearce who is up for Senate reelection. It is my sense that racist individuals get their views published regularly in the opinion sections of this forum and it doesn’t read like dialectic either, it reads like ‘Ding, ding, ding! We have our award for biggest racist A - - on the boards today’.
Rich posted at 11:12 pm on Sat, May 5, 2012.
Cerulean,
The subject itself is not approached rationally. There is an accepted norm, a belief, not facts or even empirical data. In fact empirical data, for example, Murray and Herrnstein's The Bell Curve, are dismissed in flames of irrational argument, not discussed. The fact is for about three centuries the top man on the totem pole was white worldwide. Since 1945 the reason doesn't get studied, examined or discussed outside of nutball ravings, which, as you pointed out, get covered. I don't really accept the idea that being white, despite being white myself, makes you automatically smarter, quicker or better. I do accept an existential view that we are all individuals. But I think I would like to see what racial traits might make you better, understand you better, understand society better. And when the data, the thoughts to help you understand that are censored, or grist for the mill of Mr. Ready, with pics on line from the EVT, the fact that wife, my children, my grandchildren are different races, ethnicities and religions, causes me pause. Of course, if you are white, I understand lese majeste.
mvccd1000 posted at 12:41 am on Sun, May 6, 2012.
I'm not sure I'd go so far as to call all of these victims innocent. Anyone who knowingly enters into a relationship with someone so ignorant and bigoted surely must expect that something like this could happen at some point. I get tired of reading all the stories of "innocent victims" who kept going back to their abusers, kept refusing to press charges, kept posting bail, etc. At some point they became complicit in their own treatment.
Dale Whiting posted at 7:09 am on Sun, May 6, 2012.
Rich,
You are still poplar with me, now more popular than ever.
I heard a theory yesterday that liberals are more willing to examine change and in doing so, experiement to make things better. Conservatives think things are better and that change is some sort of conspiracy to ruin things, no doubt a plan formulated by the devil. Liberals tend to trust science. Conservatives distrust science. Science challenges assumptions that Conservative believe to be established fact.
When I met with k33j88, I tried to illustrate for him what events in my early life taught me to not fear change and to be open to those who were different. His eyes glazed over. He just could not see how his life and mine, differing in experience as they do, naturally lead us to reach different conclusions about how to approach matters.
Here we have Ready, a failure at most everything he tried, taking up causes that blamed others, not himself. He surely was a social misfit. And his fears seemed to center on illegal immigrants. Not much different from Russell Pearce, who as a career law enforcment officer, divided groups into good guys wearing white hats and bad guys crossing the border wearing black hats. That these two had things in common sufficient to have Pearce 'recruit' ready into my faith only serves to give me fodder to work with others of my faith to help them see the light. Closed groups close their minds to outsiders, outsiders my faith commands me to love all others. kj just can't see this.
So, yes, let's have that debate. Those of us who have personal experience sufficient to know better, that differences between races, cultures, genders and even gender orientation do not signal inferiority will not be diswaded. First hand experience will not be overcome. Those like Pearce and Ready whose first hand experience never lead to coming to know, appreciate and value differences will not be easily moved to change.
Have any of you fearmongering Neocons out there made any friends of others not sharing you culture and beliefs yet? If you do, CAUTION. You'll become quite uncomfortable. Liberals like Cerulean are not affraid.
Cerulean, want to meet somewhere? As you can see, Rich and I know that this topic is not ammenable to rational analysis. I'd love to share my experiences in dealing with irrationals who have questioned change. One will surprise you. Acting behind the scenes, he helped forumlate a change that impacted policies in my faith like no other change had done in almost 100 years.
samkat posted at 9:51 pm on Sun, May 6, 2012.
Dale: I sense a little bit of bias on your part towards Russell Pearce. While I have never met the man, I doubt that he is as bad as you make him out to be. From the accounts I have read about his encounter with Ready is that he had no idea he was a White Supremacist and broke his ties with Ready when that fact was revealed. In fact, i am really surprised that you would even speak ill of him since I thought it was a Mormon thing to not speak negatively about another Mormon.
You remind me of a room mate I had in the Air Force some 55 years ago. He made my life a living hell for almost a year until I finally managed to move out of the room. He thought it was his mission to prostalize me every day even though I made it plain that I was not interested in becoming a Mormon.
I don't mind good natured sparring with you or anyone else online but I do take issue with constantly being belittled for taking a different view and no I am not interested in meeting with you one on one.
Dale Whiting posted at 2:38 am on Mon, May 7, 2012.
Actually samkat,
Neither you nor I know one another well enough to judge what we might be like in person. And your point about my judgement of Pearce would be well taken but for the situation of my knowing people well who know Pearce personally and quite well. And trusting their judgement, I feel secure in talking about him. One of those persons spoke out in this newspaper during Pearce's recall campaign. But before that, I had predicted in comments that Pearce would support a candidate to siphone off votes from his chief opponent. That really did it for me. This is not honest and is the sign of a Latterday Saint who does not really know and practice his religion.
And over the years I too have had numerous room mates while on active duty. I never push until asked and then only mildly and with mutual respect. Otherwise how do you think I got all of those Muslims as friends? But when a fellow Mormon steps in it, voicing something contrary to principles, and many Neoconservative LDS do, I let them know of their contradictions as softly as I can. And I am not alone. There are many others like me, patiently waiting for the right moment to speak up, then listen for reasonable responses. Far too often, the responses lack reason.[smile]
VofReason posted at 1:32 pm on Mon, May 7, 2012.
I pray for the people who lost their lives here and this guy just seemed like evil incarnate. I believe like the post above, why would you ever stay in that environment and worse put your children and grandchildren any where near it. Such bad decisions are not reason to lose your life. People need to take responsibility for themselves and be their own best ally.
Masterrogue666 posted at 6:56 pm on Mon, May 7, 2012.
There are racists of every color and creed. There are also Non-racists of every color and creed. Better to judge a person by their actions, and not the color of their skin.
Hatred like that needs to end, but I fear it never will...
Rich posted at 7:04 pm on Mon, May 7, 2012.
"I heard a theory yesterday that liberals are more willing to examine change and in doing so, experiement to make things better. Conservatives think things are better and that change is some sort of conspiracy to ruin things, no doubt a plan formulated by the devil. Liberals tend to trust science. Conservatives distrust science. Science challenges assumptions that Conservative believe to be established fact."
What if you accept neither science nor 'established fact'? Science cannot establish a fact, it is empirical and no matter how many times you test it, the first 'black swan' crashes it. So I find experimenting with human beings more than a little sick. I think there is only one established fact, 'cogito ergo sum' because I can't doubt that I doubt. The rest is just a way to mess with you, to someone else's advantage. In short, can we get past both Liberals and Conservatives?
Cerulean posted at 1:45 pm on Wed, May 9, 2012.
Rich,
There is the bell curve, and the associated tests. Then there is the test on physical body intelligence written on a basketball court or other tests that do not bend to the curve of a bell. Some people are smarter than others, there is no doubt; but at what? I watched a program on PBS several years ago about a mathematical genius who worked for a year on a proof for a theorem. He found the proof but in the process, he nearly went mad. There is a fine line between genius and insanity.
Many years ago I read Guns, Germs, and Steel: A short history of everybody for the last 13,000 years (the title has since changed to: The Fates of Human Societies) by Jared Diamond. Today one can skip the book and watch the documentary on youtube.
To me, Diamond is interesting. His theory examines how the environment influenced cultural differences and conquest one over another and the planet.
I also thought, Rich, that you might appreciate the humor in an illustration I found while I was looking up the meaning of lese-majesty. You can see it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lese-majesty
Dale – you are gifted. I love to read and hear your stories. I will always appreciate you conversation.
Leon Ceniceros posted at 5:54 pm on Wed, May 9, 2012.
Funny how the Liberals, the Progressives, the Democrats and their Left-Wing TV and Newspaper media "fellow-travelers" always equate the word "White" with "Hate".
These people might want to go on YouTube and type in "Reginald Denny" and watch the video of Blacks showing "Hate" to innocent "Whites".
Racism cuts both ways..........White-hating Blacks and Black-hating Whites.
"CAN'T WE ALL GET ALONG" (Rodney King).