In order to understand Iran, we need some background. Dating to before World War II, Iran has attempted to balance the influences upon it from its neighbors, both Russia and the West. In 1941, Britain and the USSR invaded Iran to use Iranian railroad capacity. During World War II, the Shah (king) was obliged to abdicate in favor of his son, Mohammad Reza Pahlavi. At that time a relatively long-lived parliament had been governing Iran. However, its prime minister was assassinated in 1951 and was replaced by Dr. Mohammad Mosaddegh whose selection was ratified by Shah Reza Pahlavi. Enormously popular, Mosaddegh nationalized Iran’s petroleum industry, leading to President Eisenhower’s authorization of Operation Ajax in 1953, the first successful open US sponsored overthrow of an elected, civilian government, Cold War Democracy in action!
After Operation Ajax, Shah Reza Pahlavi’s pro-Western rule turned Iran away from the USSR but became increasingly autocratic. With American support, the Shah was able to rapidly modernize Iranian infrastructure, but he simultaneously crushed all forms of political opposition with his intelligence agency, SAVAK. Ayatollah Khomeini became an active critic of the Shah’s White Revolution and publicly denounced the government. In response, the Shah had Khomeini exiled. Those few Iranians who favored communistic principles were also persecuted.
Then, with his health failing and his secret police becoming increasingly unpopular, the Shah abdicated and left the country, leading to the Iranian Hostage Crisis in 1979.
Perhaps it’s time we Americans left Iran alone and apologized for our attempts to have our way with them, to dominate them, their oil industry and their very culture? We Americans truly have had an ugly past!
Dale Whiting
Chandler
Masterrogue666 posted at 7:09 am on Sun, Mar 18, 2012.
Dale wrote: "I do not put hats on people." -- If by that you mean you don't "label" people, that is a BOLD FACE LIE!, and you know it.
Slabside posted at 6:35 pm on Thu, Mar 15, 2012.
23 to 7. Dale loses yet again. [beam]
VofReason posted at 1:16 pm on Thu, Mar 15, 2012.
Since he or course understands them much more then we or say any of the people who don't trust them in the Government do.
VofReason posted at 1:15 pm on Thu, Mar 15, 2012.
Yes, that Iran. So good. Known funder of terrorists in Lebannon, Iraq etc etc. But, it really is the Us' fault like Dale says. We should just take our punishment and know it was us who wronged them- they never evr did a thing wrong. Just victims or circumstance really. I think we should send Dale over to have a good chat with them to work out this whole Nuclear "energy" deal.
Accuracy posted at 10:56 am on Thu, Mar 15, 2012.
Meanwhile in Iran today…..
Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is being accused, by the Iranian parliament lawmakers, of mismanaging Iran's economy and defying the authority of the Supreme Leader of Iran.
Ali Khamenei, who succeeded Ruhollah Khomeini, has held the position Supreme Leader of the Islamic Republic since 1989.
During the questioning, President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad showed lack of respect for the house as he escaped answering any of the parliamentarian’s questions. Now they are very much against him and may be deeply wounded politically.
Masterrogue666 posted at 9:27 pm on Wed, Mar 14, 2012.
Hey Dale, practice what you preach FIRST! What you state about us can also be said about you. The problem is that you can't see to reconize that fact.
sockratties posted at 6:49 pm on Wed, Mar 14, 2012.
Dale – Israel is as conflicted at to what to do about their situation as anyone else. Just as in the U.S. there are sharp disagreements, mostly between the hawks who would like to see a military solution and the doves who would like to see a diplomatic solution. Their Arab and Iranian neighbors are less pragmatic, perhaps because they have little to lose.
I don't see a way that Israel can prevail without using threats. Just as in the U.S., the shouts of extremists tend to be the only voices heard.
Israel would actually like us to do the dirty work of attacking Iran by setting up some phony UN coalition to pretend legitimacy. If we were to stop supporting Israel until they stop building settlements and come to the bargaining table some progress might be made. Our politicians, including every president since Jimmy Carter, are afraid of getting on AIPAC's wrong side.
Dale Whiting posted at 5:18 pm on Wed, Mar 14, 2012.
You know, you guys remember what you want to remember and forget what you either can't or won't remember or understand.
I do not put hats on people. Iranians are not wearing white hats, nor are the Israelies. I only observe that your painting us always as wearing white hats is patently wrong.
It is high time you guys learned this lesson, before Rome falls once again.
sockratties posted at 11:07 am on Wed, Mar 14, 2012.
Masterrogue666 –
Unfortunately some experiments done seem to support your thoughts by analogy.
One is the Petri dish where a blue mold and a pink mold are planted on opposite sides in a nourishment gel. The molds grow with until they meet at which time they compete for the nourishment and remaining unused territory. Once all the territory is claimed the strongest mold begins killing the weaker until it dominates the dish, absorbs all the nourishment and dies.
The other is an environment with an ample food and water to support a rat population but only so much area. The rats breed naturally thus increasing the population. Food and water are made available to support the growing population. Even when resources are adequate, at a certain point the rats attack each. When the experiment is repeated the results are consistent. There is a number of rats per square meter of area tipping point at which the rats become self destructive.
We may not be very different from mold and rats. We may blindly fight for and use resources until we destroy ourselves or we may simply fight over territory to our mutual destruction. I think I see some of both around the world today.
If we are driven to the brink of WWIII by scarcity of oil, which is discretionary, think what is going to happen in the not too distant future when necessities like food and water become scarce around the world.
Masterrogue666 posted at 5:18 am on Wed, Mar 14, 2012.
Rich: I think that mankind will one day become too populous, and our current way of life will come crashing down. It's happened to many major civilizations before. I see no reason why it can't happen to the whole of mankind.
If mankind survives it, I hope they remember, and decide to live with nature, like the indians did.
Rich posted at 10:06 pm on Tue, Mar 13, 2012.
So we will choose up sides and slaughter people until someone's view wins out? Maybe by that time everyone will have a nuclear weapon and we can bomb everything back to the stone age. Every army is just a gang, and every politico just a gang leader. The only independent people who do such things are psychopathic, why is it in groups we seem to endorse psychopathic? The average man isn't out to get you, any place. Why gang up on him? The crazy ones are artists and murderers, you take the good with the bad. And, in the end, acting like the worst of them, in armed groups isn't to our best interests. The tendency to 'group think' is one of the worst things we do, and we haven't got the vaguest handle on it. If we don't start to get one, then Tom Lehrer will prove to be a prophet: "...we will all go together when we go. Ev'ry Hottenhot and ev'ry Eskimo. When the air becomes uranious, And we will all go simultaneous. Yes we all will go together, we all will go together, Yes we all will go together when we go."
Rational Human posted at 9:28 pm on Tue, Mar 13, 2012.
Masterrogue666, I was not referring to the "Six Day War". I was referring to Israel's stated plan to attack Iran in the very near future. When they attack and kill thousands of Iranians in the war to maintain political control of the region. In the name of their God no doubt. After all, God needs more blood. God needs lots of blood all the time it would seem.
Slabside posted at 5:49 pm on Tue, Mar 13, 2012.
Vof, according to Dale, Carter is the second best president ever. He considers Obamanure the best. It gives you some insight as to what color the sky is in Dale's world. Scary huh?
VofReason posted at 12:59 pm on Tue, Mar 13, 2012.
Hmmmm. Iran good, Isreal bad. Apologize to Iran and read Jimmy Carter's book. I going to stash these ideas firmly into the column of crazy. I think Dale didn't yet get the memo that Carter was the worst President in US history- present administration aside.
sockratties posted at 8:19 am on Tue, Mar 13, 2012.
Dale – Your observations regarding Iran and American involvement is bias and somewhat simplistic. Of course you can blame America's addiction to oil for any oil related problem in the world but the real culprit is the supply and demand equation. Oil use and production is a global endeavor and has global implications. If the U. S. became oil independent today the demand would only increase because oil would become cheaper increasing demand around the world.
Oil demand began with kerosene, increased with diesel fuels and finally gasoline. As early as the late 1800s Russia, England, Holland and other western countries began making sure that they had adequate supplies to fuel their armies, navies and industry. This became even more pronounced as they prepared for upcoming WWI. The U. S. was an exporter at that time, not an importer.
Read Edwin Black's 2011 book, “British Petroleum and the Redline Agreement” for a look at how the Ottoman Empire and other world powers fit into the game that is still being played.
Cerulean posted at 7:51 pm on Mon, Mar 12, 2012.
“Cold War Democracy in action!”
OH, OH, do you mean that the U.S. was involved in ‘oil politics’ way back in 1953? That we would be so . . . . (I can’t find the right word) as to strangle a sitting prime minister, elected by the people of Iran only to displace him with a dictator that would give us access to oil - cheap, cheap oil.
Hark, is that a Republican chant I hear blaming Obama for the price of oil? If one wanted to destabilize oil prices (and the US economy) just threaten to nuke Iran. After all, Obama has not been the most ‘faithful’ supporter of Israelis continued land grabs, air strikes and violence in Gaza. Republicans then have the opportunity to denounce any effort made by Obama to calm the rhetoric.
[smile]The comments on this letter were good - reading.
Accuracy posted at 7:10 pm on Mon, Mar 12, 2012.
Dale Whiting concludes again: “Perhaps it’s time we Americans left Iran alone and apologized for our attempts to have our way with them, to dominate them, their oil industry and their very culture? We Americans truly have had an ugly past!”
-------------------------------------------
Is that why (at a meeting between President Barack Obama and Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu last week) President Obama presses Netanyahu to hold off any attack at Iranian nuclear facilities until after the November election?
Obama has heard Israel’s warnings about a possible strike at Iran’s nuclear program project facilities – and Iran’s development of an intercontinental ballistic missile warhead and conduct large-scale high-explosive experiments.
A White House official told the British Sunday Times newspaper that President Obama “might visit in the summer to reassure the Israelis that the US commitment to defend Israel is unshakable and thus thwart a possible autumn attack.”
Visit Israelis while Islamist groups are firing rockets from the Gaza Strip into Israeli towns?
The real battle from the Gaza Strip and by Iran is about Israel's right to exist. Islamist groups in the Middle East are declaring that the Jewish state DOES NOT HAVE the right to exist. And they keep saying they want to destroy Israel.
Masterrogue666 posted at 5:40 pm on Mon, Mar 12, 2012.
Rational Human: My point was to Dale's CURIOUSLY LESS THAN COMPLETE story about the current government of Iran. I'm not arguing that the USA has done some "dirty deeds" since it's inception. However, Dale seemingly would like you to think that the Iranian government has done no wrong in its time. Most governments (most religions too) have done wrong. Obama even gave aid to Hezbollah!
http://www.zimbio.com/Hezbollah/articles/LhxkMXEw4zy/Hillary+Clinton+Shilling+Military+Aid+Hezbollah
I believe you are referring to the "Six Day War" in regards to what Israel has done? I did a little more reading and found this interesting tidbit: In 1967, Egyptian President Gamal Abdel Nasser declared the Straits closed to Israeli shipping on May. 22–23. On 27 May he stated "Our basic objective will be the destruction of Israel. The Arab people want to fight." Not only did was that against the 1949 Armistice Agreements, but THEY ASKED FOR IT!! Israel complied.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1949_Armistice_Agreements
However, you could be referring to the 1948 Arab–Israeli War (WHICH SHOULD HAVE BEEN MENTIONED BY DALE). It happened after the British Mandate of Palestine came to an end. A civil war occurred, and bordering Arab countries entered into the conflict causing it to be a war between nations.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab-Israeli_War
So, from what I've seen, it's not so cut and dry, with neither side "innocent". To me, both sides wanted to fight. Israel won, OVER 60 years ago. It's time the losers dealt with it.
I've noticed (and others) that Dale presents VOLUMES of VERY SPECIFIC information, so that his opinion is supported as "fact". And if you don't agree WITH HIM, then you are foolish, et al.
Me, I say check it out for yourself, and make your own decision. Therein lies the difference.
Rational Human posted at 11:48 am on Mon, Mar 12, 2012.
I have no love or hate for any Middle Eastern peoples. I do like their oil though. It's very sweet. Anything that can disrupt my supply of sweet crude I'm against. So, how much sweet crude does Israel supply us? Zip, zero, nada. So in the interest of having a needy friend in the Middle East we should cut our own arm off? This is certainly a madness that must end. One reason I support Ron Paul is that he can see this insanity and wants to end it. Masterrogue666 you are quick to assign the word assassins to Middle Eastern Muslims who commit murder in the name of God, and I don't disagree with that, but then for who do the Israeli's fight for if not God? When they attack and kill thousands of Iranians in the war to maintain political control of the region, who will that be for? For us? I don't think it is in America's best interest to allow that to happen. I also think we are not going to be able to stop it from happening. We created the uncontrollable monster and now must suffer the consequences of our misadventure.
Masterrogue666 posted at 11:22 am on Mon, Mar 12, 2012.
I WILL NOT respect assassins, and those who murder in the name of God. And even though YOU believe it to be foolish, that does not make it so. It only makes YOU out to be the fool.
Respect must be EARNED. Tell me when/where you think they've EARNED respect due to their actions, if you can. I'll be open minded, although we all know that you have proven, time and again, that you are not.
By the way, when Britian was assisting Iran way back when, THEY DID HAVE THE BEST OIL REFINERY in that region.
sockratties posted at 8:42 am on Mon, Mar 12, 2012.
Another component that must be considered withing the context of the Middle Eastern theater are the cultures and religions themselves. You may defeat a people's country but not their minds. We have examples in Libya, Iraq and Afghanistan. We're working on geographic Palestine, Syria and Lebanon. The West has carved these countries up with artificial borders and governments and tried to bomb them into submission. It hasn't worked and at best makes us slave-masters holding entire populations hostage for their oil.
We tend to group Iran with other middle eastern countries but they are Persians, not Arabs and they tend to be Shi’ite, not Sunni as our client “friends” such as Saudi Arabia and the Arab Emirates tend to be. We may be able to bomb them into the stone age but we will still have to deal with those hearts and minds. Maybe it's better to do so now than when they have suicide vests under their tunics.
Dale Whiting posted at 7:38 am on Mon, Mar 12, 2012.
Mr. 666,
Yes, there is a much bigger picture to have painted. But not in 250 words or less! Should you ever wish to take the time to paint some larger picture, your won't get it printed in this paper!
Iran has been torn apart at its seems for hundreds and thousands of years. The idea that there is unanimity is rediculous. To borrow our terms, they have religious fundamentalists, progressives looking to foreign advances in culture and industry, conservatives looking back, advocates for democracy, advocates for theocracy, etc. But to say that because one leader denies the holocost and embraces for the entire nation the elimination of Israel, and not realize how much that advocacy is merely playing domestic politics, is to invite us to start the demise of our own democracy.
Know this. Iran has a right to develope itself as it see fit. And as Rational Human and Fareed Zakariz point out, MAD [mutually assured destruction] has been and probably will continue to be a means to learn to respect all nations. Don't allow others to draw us in. Show wisdom not foolishness.
We can continue trying to have our way with Iran, and to permit Israel to have its way with Palestinians of other than Jewish descent [where both we and the Israelies are the foreign forces in those lands] but don't forget. The native middle easterners, largely if not exclusively of Semitic descent, Arab mostly, control much of the crude oil the rest of the world so desperately needs. So you'd better learn some respect. And that is why I did my short piece on Iran, to help you learn some respect!
We have a choice. We can join with Bibi Netanyaho and wage war unnecessarily, or we can negotiate peace. The first requires emnity, the latter respect. I choose the latter! I choose respect.
Masterrogue666 posted at 9:02 pm on Sun, Mar 11, 2012.
"What gives Israel the right to such an arsenal?" -- Have they used it?
HOLY men use ASSASSINATIONS to get a government they want. Do you really think they wouldn't use a nuclear weapon on Israel or the USA?
Masterrogue666 posted at 9:00 pm on Sun, Mar 11, 2012.
TYPO: change MURDERS to MURDERERS
Masterrogue666 posted at 8:59 pm on Sun, Mar 11, 2012.
"However, its prime minister was assassinated in 1951 and was replaced by Dr. Mohammad Mosaddegh" -- Gee, I find it interesting that Dale didn't go into much detail here, so I did some checking.
The Prime Minister was Haj Ali Razmara whom was ASSASSINATED by Khalil Tahmasebi whom belonged to the "religious" group Fada'iyan-e Islam.
Fada'iyan-e Islam was founded in 1946, by a 21 year-old theology student named Navvab Safavi. Safavi sought to purify Islam in Iran by ridding it of `corrupting individuals` by means of carefully planned assassinations of certain leading intellectual and political figures.
Some changes occurred, and the group survived as supporters of the Ayatollah Khomeini and the Islamic Revolution of Iran, creating a Theocracy.
That created the Guardianship of the Islamic Jurists. They chose to install "Absolute Guardianship of the Jurist" which maintains that Guardianship should include all issues for which Prophet of Islam and Shi'a Imam have responsibility, including governance of the country.
So, MURDERS took charge of Iran, in God's name?
And we all know how religious Dale is! And he seems to think they've got it right.
Why am I not surprised?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haj_Ali_Razmara
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khalil_Tahmassebi
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fadayan-e_Islam
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Navvab_Safavi
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khomeini
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_Revolution
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theocracy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guardianship_of_the_Islamic_Jurists
Slabside posted at 8:06 pm on Sun, Mar 11, 2012.
@ Dale, "Were it up to me, I'd send US Peace Keeping troups into Israel, disband the IDF and for once in 60 + years "give peace a chance!"
That doesn't surprise me one bit. You have more than once voiced support for Hamas, an Islamic terrorist organization.
I'm wondering if the folks from the FBI or perhaps Homeland Security should schedule a heart to heart talk with you.
Dale Whiting posted at 7:18 pm on Sun, Mar 11, 2012.
Rational Human,
Did you hear Fareed Zakaria today? Pretty much, your thoughts were his thoughts!
Dale Whiting posted at 7:17 pm on Sun, Mar 11, 2012.
Slabside,
Just how do you define ally? Try reading Jimmy Carter's book, "Palestine, Peace not Apartheid." Jimmy understands what an ally really is. Israel is more like an unruly step child than a well disciplined friend.
Bottom line, we here in the US do not get it. In Israel the government is questioned seriously on its policies by its own Jewish citizens. Jews in Israel are not united, but are divided as to how to best survive and get along with their neighbors.
The Cold War is over. Israel is becoming a serious liability. Were it up to me, I'd send US Peace Keeping troups into Israel, disband the IDF and for once in 60 + years "give peace a chance!"
Slabside posted at 6:05 pm on Sun, Mar 11, 2012.
Rational, I understand you harbor no love for Jews or Israel but Iran's saber rattling is only going to cause a showdown with Israel. To me Israel is the only ally we have in the Middle East, Jewish state or not. They are surrounded by nations that want them exterminated. If they stike first I would hardly blame them.
Rational Human posted at 5:52 pm on Sun, Mar 11, 2012.
I really hate to agree with Dale, but when you start believing your own nation's propaganda about Iran you really need to take a step back and study the real facts. The statement that Iran wants to wipe Israel off the map has been taken way out of context. Our insane to the death support of European Jews who occupy Palestine has been nothing but trouble for America and may actually lead to our demise. The Iranians are a very intelligent people. They wont drop a bomb knowing that they would be annihilated. However, Iran with the bomb might give Israel reason to soften their stance and make them more willing to share some of this land with the true Palestinian people.
Slabside posted at 4:35 pm on Sun, Mar 11, 2012.
@Dale, "What gives Israel the right to such an arsenal?"
Dale, do you hear Israel repeatedly denying the Holocaust and threatening to wipe Iran off of the face of the earth? The ansswer is NO.
@Dale, "Iran want's a nuclear capability for many reasons."
Yeah Dale, that is what you Libs said right before Madeleine Albright convinced Bill Clinton to give Noth Korea it's nuclear capability. That has worked out real well hasn't it?
Here is a few more items of interest for Dale's beloved Iran:
Iran already has the largest inventory of ballistic missiles in the Middle East, and it is expanding the scale, reach, and sophistication of its ballistic missile force, many of which are inherently capable of carrying a nuclear payload.
Iran supports organizations such as Hezbollah, which is deemed a terrorist organization by the United States, as well as its indirect support of Hamas in the Gaza Strip.
Iranian weapons have been found in Afghanistan, and Tehran is attempting a "dual-track strategy" in Afghanistan and Iraq - working against U.S. and coalition desires while making efforts to "put forward the government" in both countries.
Iran has been linked to recent bombing attempts in Thailand, India and Georgia targeting Israeli interests. While they may not have been a technical success, they still had a psychological impact.
Iran also poses a threat to U.S. interests and can close the Strait of Hormuz, the entryway to the Persian Gulf.
Iran is linked to killing Americans in Iraq and Afghanistan, supporting terrorist groups across the Middle East, destabilizing Arab countries, propping up and rearming the Assad regime in Syria.
http://security.blogs.cnn.com/2012/02/16/iran-a-threat-to-u-s-on-many-fronts/
Dale, go ahead with your love affair with radical Islam all you want but don't expect any of us sain Americans to subscribe to your lunacy.
Dale Whiting posted at 3:39 pm on Sun, Mar 11, 2012.
Slabside,
"The right to a nuclear arsenal" you say! What gives Israel the right to such an arsenal? It has one, you know. And therefore so does Iran. But don't confuse political rhetoric with underlying purposes. Iran want's a nuclear capability for many reasons. One is prestige. We pretty much took that away from them under the Shah. Another is nuclear power. The degree of uranium enrichment is the key difference. If we sponsored low level uranium enrichment and helped them develop power generation stations, also monitoring expended fuel cell storage and limited reprocessing, even throwing in some petro-chemical refineries, we could strike a deal and avoid another crazy Republican sponsored war in the middle east which would have the effect of sending gasoline prices well over $6 per gallon. Would China lend us the money for such a war? I doubt it. So that would become the end of US!
Did you know that Iran, one of the world's leading crude oil exporters, has to import refined fuel products? It hasn't been permited to develope it's own refineries! That's how little respect we have had for them! Can you imagine how little respect they have had for us?
And if you are concerned about Iran's religious extremism, look into the mirror to see who moved them in that direction! As I point out in my piece, it was we ugly Americans!
Leon,
Dry up! You are only exposing your profound ignorance and unimaginable biases.
P.S. If none of you caught Fareed Zakaria's program on CNN this Sunday morning, at least catch his article in this week's Time Magazine. As a foreigner who has fallen in love with the US, he is despirately trying to help us see ourselves as others see us. That's fundamentally a Christian virtue, you know!
Leon Ceniceros posted at 11:56 am on Sun, Mar 11, 2012.
"APOLOGIZE" = THE MANTRA OF THE LIBERAL, PROGRESSIVE AMERICAN DEMOCRAT.
Isn't it bad enough that we have a Democrat President (Barack Hussein Obama...or whatever this person's "real" name is)......who bows to the Emperor of Japan...lower than the servants in the Imperial Palace.
A Democrat President (Barack Hussein Obama...ditto) who... "BOWS IN HALF"... to the "Protector of Mecca", the "Leader of Islam", the King of Saudi Arabia........and now here we have a Citizen of the Soverign State of Arizona, the United States of America...........WHO WANTS OBAMA TO ...........BOW AND SCRAPE AND APOLOGIZE TO THE................IRANIANS.......THE SAME IRANIANS WHO HELD AMERICANS HOSTAGE FOR .......400 DAYS ??????????
Slabside posted at 11:24 am on Sun, Mar 11, 2012.
The regrettable bad decision of Operation Ajax does not give Iran the right to develop a nuclear arsenal with the sole intent to wipe another country off of the face of the earth. Iran is now an extreme Islamic terrorist state. Only a weak minded liberal mantra would suggest apologies in the face of this nuclear terrorist threat.