Perhaps one of the first lessons learned in college reserve officer training from the study of military history is that troops are reticent to take up arms. Studies show that about a third of trained infantry soldiers facing the enemy in a conventional battlefield environment will actually point their weapons at an identified enemy and pull the trigger. Not so with field artillerymen. Usually they don’t see the enemy nor the huge explosions where their shells impact.
During World War II, my father directed artillery fire in the corp artillery group assigned to Patton’s Third Army. He lost a full half of his young second lieutenant aerial forward observers who radioed back information needed to adjust the aim of his artillery battalion, this after German forces, figuring out what those slow flying airplanes were doing, began to shoot them down. Dad did not talk much about these losses for he had personally trained each and every one of these fine young men, and losing them was just too much to bear.
Yet after the surrender of forces in Europe, both my father, then a POW camp commander, and his men went out of their way to help their German detainees. There were no fences. None were needed for the only way to get food was to eat in the chow hall. Detainees were not issued ration cards until their processing was completed. And background checks were slow for officer detainees.
Seeing these officers sharing their meager rations with their kinfolk, my dad and his men shared their rations, too. One officer wishing to restart his career as an artist asked my dad to help him get art supplies. Speaking no German, and barely knowing the difference between a pencil and an eraser, my dad put this man into the jeep and drove him to an art store. Today a beautiful pencil drawing of old Regensburg, Germany from north of the Danube still hangs on my wall, gifted back in thanks for this accommodation. And I treasure a pair of field glasses given to my dad by another German officer whom he drove into the Bavarian Alps one weekend so that he could be with his wife for the birth of their first child.
Is it somehow different today? After Vietnam and now Iraq and Afghanistan, have we somehow allowed events to turn us into barbarians? For the sakes of my dad’s lost forward observer lieutenants, I certainly hope not. For that’s a toll too big to pay!
Dale Whiting
Chandler
Slabside posted at 3:53 pm on Mon, Mar 19, 2012.
War was much better when dear ol' Dad was around. More psychobabble from the site nutcase.
Leon Ceniceros posted at 7:07 pm on Mon, Mar 19, 2012.
FOLKS,
Obviously, the Letter Writer has never heard of the..."MALMEDY MASSACRE". It occured on December 17, 1944 in Malmedy, France. The German 1st SS Panzer Division lined up .....84 US PRISONERS OF WAR AND MACHINE-GUNNED THEM TO DEATH = SO MUCH FOR GERMAN ARMY/US ARMY........"FRIENDSHIP".
Another atrocity was the Bataan Death March in the Phillipines. 10,000 FILIPINO PRISONERS OF WAR AND 650 US PRISONERS OF WAR WERE BEATEN TO DEATH WITH RIFLE BUTTS, BAYONETTED TO DEATH, BEHEADED, SODOMIZED AND BURIED ALIVE BY THE JAPANESE IMPERIAL ARMY.
NO FOOD, NO WATER AND NO REST WERE GIVEN THE 75,000 ALLIED PRISONERS OF WAR IN 90F WEATHER WITH 80% HUMIDITY. THE PRISONERS OF WAR WERE NOT ALLOWED TO STOP TO GO TO THE BATHROOM. THEY URINATED AND FECATED IN THEIR PANTS.
WHERE DOES THE LETTER WRITER COME UP WITH THESE .."WALT DISNEY"...IDEAS OF PAST WARS ???
Slabside posted at 9:06 pm on Mon, Mar 19, 2012.
Now now Leon, you must not present facts to the faux consevative like that. In his dreamworld realities like Dachau and Auschwitz do not have merit. You must remember Himmler and Heydrich were just a couple of fun loving Bavarian lads you would find drinking bier in der gast haus.
Dale Whiting posted at 6:25 am on Tue, Mar 20, 2012.
Actually Leon and Slabside,
I have heard of the Malmedy Massacre and Bataan, too and some neither of you have heard of. Not mentioned by my Dad for years was his unit's discovery of a field covered in bodies that, like Malmedy, appeared to have been machinegunned. Dad reported this incident to MP's who investigated it but results were hushed up. You see, the gunners were Russians and the victims were Ukranians.
Seems that Ukranians were believed to have surrendered to the advancing German forces too readily. Some like the recently departed Ukranian who was tried as a war crimes participant, even acted as prison guards. And for this, the Russians summarily executed each Ukranian who crossed their path. Did either of you know about that?
Are we about to begin executing Iranians, Afghanis, etc? Apparently some of us have! I certainly hope not and am calling attention to these acts now as I called attention to humanitarian acts above hoping that those forward observers whom my Dad trained will not have died in vain. For allowing war to cause us to act like savages is too high a price to pay, both back than and in recent weeks with the slaughtering of those 16 civilian men, women and children in Afghanistan. Far too high a price to pay!
sockratties posted at 7:57 am on Tue, Mar 20, 2012.
Dale – Let's see now... War = destruction of the enemy. Weapons are used to destroy the enemy. Weapons kill... Ergo; War = killing. Seems like an easy equation to me.
In your letter you imply that Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan have turned us into barbarians. There are two arguments here. We can argue if we should or should not have been there but regarding humanity that is another issue. We didn't go there to get our dance card punched. We went to kill the enemy and we're pretty good at it, better than anyone else.
I don't think we would have prevailed in the European theater of operations if we spent our time distributing crayons to German soldiers or being their tour guide. Somewhere there were soldiers taking care of business and killing more of the enemy than they killed of us. Barbarians? Maybe, but we're not all speaking German now, are we?
VofReason posted at 1:11 pm on Tue, Mar 20, 2012.
Yes, I am sure our boys in Iraq wish they could share a peanut butter and jelly with the couragous soldier who blew up an improvised explosive devise to blow up his jeep underneath the school yard swingset. Or drove a jeep with a bomb into a group of US soldiers and civilians and took the lives of the whole bunch. I would love to hear one of our brave boys who is back from one of those places share their opinion of Dale's fairyland.
Dale Whiting posted at 7:13 pm on Tue, Mar 20, 2012.
Let's cut to the chase here guys.
That nut job who just slaughtered 16 innocent civilians in Afghanistan in their sleep was no innocent victim. He may have suffered severely from various war related syndromes. And that would explain, but neither justify nor excuse his behavior. Those Russians and Germans who killed POWs by the vacant field's worth were war criminals. But the average man when thrust into war, doesn't readily pull the trigger on his own weapon, not at first anyway. Killing others is not natural.
Rather than instituting a national draft, one which would have most of us and most of our sons participating once in these wars, we hired the underemployed and "patriots" to serve tour after tour after tour, thanking them for their service, service we would rather not have to provide for ourselves. That is barbaric! That is shamefull.
In 1972 my draft # was 22. After graduating from college I served on active duty for 7 years. I volunteered for EOD, explosive ordnance disposal, the Army Bomb Squad, and served in three EOD units. I did my share of traveling under lights and sirens to do investigations. I did more than my share of teaching civilian law enforcement officers how to handle bomb threats. The local FBI office saw that I had all the classes I could teach. Bomb threats and bomb making were routine back then. Why we even had a paperback book selling in the local book stores detailing how to make bombs. When an officer in Buffalo expressed his opinion that I was exaggerating the availability of this information, over lunch I crossed the street and bought him a copy! That sure got his attention!
So when I ask if we are becoming barbarians, I darn well know that I am talking about here, guys. And none of you have a clue!
Slabside posted at 7:28 pm on Tue, Mar 20, 2012.
"So when I ask if we are becoming barbarians, I darn well know that I am talking about here, guys. And none of you have a clue!"
So you ask a question, we all disagree so you tell us you know it all and we have no clue.
So why even ask the question you dolt when you obviously know it all?
Rich posted at 10:31 pm on Tue, Mar 20, 2012.
That nut job is your society, Dale. You have no handle on it. You can't predict the psychotic. You can stop making heroic in your children.
sockratties posted at 6:01 am on Wed, Mar 21, 2012.
Dale – You are so, so wrong. Think about it (for a change). Man came out of the cave, found a rock. He discovered that he could use it to kill animals for food. Then he found he could use it to kill another man and get his food. Hmmm, much easier. Later he ties the rock to a stick and has a spear. Good stuff, don't even have to get close now. Increase distance with bow and arrow. Etc, ad nausium.
Truth is, Dale, we have weaponized every invention we've come up with including the airplane. It's in our nature to take from others for personal gain. We are a veneer of civilization over the body of a savage. We try the civilized method first because there is less risk, but all else failing we will kill to get what we want. That's what Alexander the Great, Julius Caesar, Dwight Eisenhower and every successful leader throughout history has demonstrated. We're demonstrating it now in the Middle East by pretending to work toward diplomatic solutions and eventually going to war for oil. While Greek scholars and Chinese philosophers may be esteemed with reverence, it's the brutal generals and warlords that are idolized by historians.
Setting yourself apart with faux arguments and relating self-serving rhetoric to support your dreams does little to convince others of anything except your delusional self image. I've read your ubiquitous stories about personal exploits experiences. You're either 350 years old or full of bull, and no one lives to be 350 years old. You're a hero in your own mind.
Leon Ceniceros posted at 8:26 am on Wed, Mar 21, 2012.
Dale,
Thank you for blowing your "OWN" horn as usual.......way, way, more information than we really need to know or care to know. But it seems that by your own admission....YOU NEVER EXPERIENCE BATTLE....YOU NEVER CAME FACE TO FACE WITH AN ENEMY....YOU NEVER HAD PART OF YOUR FOOT SHOOT OFF LIKE THIS POOR GUY DID. YOU NEVER WENT ON PATROL AFTER PATROL AFTER PATROL LIKE THIS POOR GUY DID FOR FOUR (4) 12-MONTH DEPLOYMENTS IN IRAQ AND AFGHANISTAN....MORE THAT 1000 PATROLS THIS POOR GUY EXPERIENCED.
THE STRYKER VEHICLE BATTALIONS SUFFERED MORE DEATHS AND WOUNDED THAN ANY OTHER UNITS IN THE IRAQ AND AFGHANISTAN WAR...ARMY OR MARINES. RIDING IN THE BELLY OF A STRYKER VEHICLE THAT WAS NEVER DESIGN TO WITHSTAND AN ..."I.E.D." BOMB. NEVER KNOWING WHEN THE FLOOR OF YOUR STRYKER VEHICLE WOULD BECOME MOLTEN METAL AND RIP THROUGH YOUR BODY OR YOUR LEGS AND ARMS MIGHT BE BLOWN OFF.
SO WHERE IN GAWD'S NAME DO YOU GET OFF ON CALLING THIS POOR GUY A BARBARIAN............UNTIL YOU HAVE WALKED A DAY IN HIS SHOES YOU SHOULD JUST NO SAY ANYTHING....YOU HAVEN'T EARNED THE RIGHT.
Rich posted at 6:43 pm on Wed, Mar 21, 2012.
Sock,
Was there, I sort of began to doubt Dale when he didn't know the SP doesn't carry. But you make it too personal. The single person is more shocking, and a good deal less dangerous. It is our tendency to hold onto something we can't define, but are and gang up that is problematic and that we need a handle on. We have rocks that a man can't throw, only a society can, and each one can eliminate a city. That's what needs control, and that's not what we attempt to control.
sockratties posted at 8:15 pm on Wed, Mar 21, 2012.
Rich,
Good observation. It's easy to get caught in Dale's trap. Thanx
Dale Whiting posted at 8:58 am on Thu, Mar 22, 2012.
Rich, Sock,
Allow me to quote you both on matters about which we totally agree. First Sock
"We try the civilized method first because there is less risk, but all else failing we will kill to get what we want. That's what Alexander the Great, Julius Caesar, Dwight Eisenhower and every successful leader throughout history has demonstrated. We're demonstrating it now in the Middle East by pretending to work toward diplomatic solutions and eventually going to war for oil."
"all else failing?" I don't think so. Wasn't it Klasowitz who first said that "War is an extension of diplomacy by alternate means"? Have we exhaused truly all diplomatic means with Iran? Would we risk loosing supplies of oil needed to traverse the Straights of Hormoz by not even attempting to use all of those carrots we have and not just the sticks we have been using? Sticks = further draconian economic sanctions. Carrots = nuclear power generation stations and new Iranian domestic crude oil refining capacity + normalized diplomatic and economic relations with the rest of the world.
When we paint the entire nation of Iran with one broad brush stroke dipped in the paint of only one political party in Iran, we risk giving not diplomacy a chance and turning to war prematurely.
Let's see now! Name the times in our life times that the US has turned to war prematurely! Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan. Look at the means we've used to turn to war prematurely! Gulf of Tonkin Incident [a lie that needlessly cost my brother as a Navy anti-submariner his life], Weapons of Mass Destruction [Joe Wilson knew there were none but he got cut down], Taliban [the Taliban was a disorganized movement attempting to rule a nation not recognized as being one by its very own peoples. It's as if the British repeated 1812 in 1861 trying to unify both North and South while taking both over! Sure both North and South would unify, but against the British, not against eachother.]
Thank you Sock for admitting this is all about oil, oil that does not belong to us, oil that belongs to Iran, to Iraq, to Saudi Arabia, but not to us! It's not about 9-11, is it! But if and when we attempt to kill Iran for what we want, their oil, we loose.
Now for Rich,
"It is our tendency to hold onto something we can't define, but are and gang up that is problematic and that we need a handle on. We have rocks that a man can't throw, only a society can, and each one can eliminate a city. That's what needs control, and that's not what we attempt to control."
Rich, I did not follow all of the foregoing. Please explain as I repeat with added comments.
"It is our tendency to hold onto something we can't define, but are [are what? I don't quit follow. Holding onto something we cannot hold onto with a rational justification for holding on?] and gang up [on other nations? Yes, and that's called hegemony by most and "Ugly Americanism" by some others] that is problematic and that we need 'a handle on'."
Did we control ourselves after 9-11? Did we first get 'a handle on' what really needed to be done in response? No we did not. Rather we did not first find Osama bin Laden and take him out. But instead we did take out Saddam Hussein who had absolutely nothing to do with either 9-11, or al Qaeda, or cloud producing weapons of mass destruction! And it took a change of administrations to finally refocus us on bin Laden!
No folks, we allowed ourselves to go overboard and over broad, hanging on desperately to concepts we still can't define! Making the world safe for democracy was, is and will always be a joke, an sad excuse for doing just the opposite!
And, yes, our megaton warheads are too big for a single man to throw. Don't you think Iranian warheads would be too big to thrown, too? Yet, for 65 years and more, since 1945 no nation but us as thrown any. That's called MAD, the realization that Mutual Assured Destruction prevents taking unseamly unilateral action. It is mad, but it bestows on those of us mad nations some sence of dignity and clout, dignity and clout which so far we have denied Iran but not Pakistan, Israel, Great Brittian, France, China and even North Korea.
Yes, I am much too simplistic, much too naive, much too much of a day dreamer. But I know it and have only spoken out naively to draw the truth out of you both. And in quoting you above, I have gotten you to speak the truth. Summarizing your truth in my words, I find that we are barbarians! We are nuts. We are much of the cause of problems which we seek to solve! We have met the enemy and the enemy is US!
In summary, we need to debate both what we are doing and why we are doing it. And when we cannot justify what we are doing to a majority of the world, both east and west, north and south, we risk running amock. Then we are on the decline!
It's time to turn our backs on Israel and in doing so make them work with the Palestinians on equal grounds. It's time to turn over a new leaf in Iran and work with them on projects of truly mutual benefit. It's time we turned our backs on hegemony! The future of struggle is economic competition between the US and China. And where so far we are in first place, China can and will catch up. We need to shift our focus away from fear of Iran, away from occupation of Afghanistan, away form mindless support of Israel, and concentrate on our future.
Remember the American War hero of the 20th Century warned us about this. He cautioned us to 'Beware of the military-industrial complex." I used to think that by employing the term "complex," Ike was referring just to those alliances between government and industry as played out in Washington DC. But now I am beginning to realize that "complex" has a more sophisticated meaning, a pshcological one. We have acquired that complex and Ike warned us about catching it!
Slabside posted at 12:13 pm on Thu, Mar 22, 2012.
Wow, Dale must have just sampled his new harvest of wacky tabacky.
sockratties posted at 12:56 pm on Thu, Mar 22, 2012.
[thumbup] Dale – nice “little” (tongue in cheek) essay. I appreciate that you didn't anchor it all to your religious leanings because then I would have blown it off.
In some class I once attended the professor theorized that once man has met his basic needs he spends his discretionary resources on aspects of his perceived well being; security, recognition and achievement. These are not mutually exclusive and any action or possession can represent any of the three. Our leaders and the movers and shakers that support them are personally driven by these motives.
If you look at the current crop of American leaders (and wannabes) you can recognize these driving forces. The same with the leaders of every other country, be they Middle Eastern, European or Asian. There needs to be checks and balances which can only occur through communication. Such communication is being eroded by the polarization of politics and factionalization of our system.
Dale Whiting posted at 5:34 pm on Sat, Mar 24, 2012.
Yes, Sock,
I agree, totally. I got this lecture not in college, but in 7th grade in Fort Worth, Texas. I've often reflected back to that simple man. Though he had a Master's Degree, he was happy to be commuting from the next county over, a cheap to live in rural county, to Fort Worth to teach us. He was passionate about the future and had a heck of a handle on both history, his major, and psychology, his minor.
Now, let's you and I talk about what needs to be done. Let's see if we can get a few others like Softside, er Slabhead, er whomever to use his noggen. I'm pretty sure Cerulean and Rich are on board!
With the up and coming crop of 2012 candidates, I don't trust any of them but perhaps Ron Paul. And in 2008 when faced with the choice between McCain/Palin [Now there's an untrustworthy pair!] and Obama/Biden, after reading Faith of my Fathers, and Dreams of my Father, it seemed to me that Obama was the better and more level headed candidate, the one whose motives seemed best. Two-thirds of the way through 'Faith' it occured to me that John was still trying to make it up to his Father, the CINCPAC, for his behavior while in the Hanoi Hilton! Obama was trying to understand his Father, not apologize to him. And without a doubt, Obama's got more on the ball than does McCain. John can't even remember 'whose on first.' He has to ask his aids. And then there is Palin! She had to write in down in the palm of her hand.
Can't say I've found any reasons to jump ship or change horses in mid-stream this season. What do you think?
manny99 posted at 7:09 pm on Wed, Apr 18, 2012.
we fight more wars because of pollitical weakness in this country. people keep talking to our enemys while they continue to attack us for any and all reasons they think is right.
we need to fight these wars like they did in wwII with complete and utter disregard for property distruction or innocent lives.
in the good old days when the romans the greeks and many other cultures went to war they went to thier enemys cities and killed everyone including the livestock and razed the city to the ground [ they took slaves too but we dont need to that ].
thats the way it should be now.
what would the world do or say if we started acting like north korea and iran? what can they do.. nothing. what can they say...alot. its all anyone ever does just talk talk talk, no action. action speaks louder than words.
the person who said "the pen is mightier than the sword" must have been a democrat.
also i went to boston public schools in the seventies... i seen people get stabbed with pens and pencils!