These union workers are heroes, not scapegoats
Mike McClellan
Mike McClellan is a Gilbert resident and former English teacher at Dobson High School in Mesa.
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mnjcpa posted at 11:10 am on Tue, Sep 20, 2011.
samkat - I was discussing my credentials because you inserted that I didn't know what I was talking about when you asked if I had a college degree and met the criteria to make an assessment. I believe I do. I'm not interested in hurling insults or comparing educational achievements. That wasn’t the point.
I deal in facts, statistics, and law. I'm in a business (CPA, tax, valuing private businesses) that I regularly review statistics as part of my work. So with that out of the way let me help with the math. Let’s take a hypothetical. You start work with the government at 25 - you retire at 55 (which is in and of itself impossible in private business). If you did decently well you're making say $100k a year. Life expectancy is 85. That's 30 x 60% (sometimes 70 or 80%) of your salary or $1.8 million - NOT counting health benefits which will easily bring it to $3 million over a lifetime without applying a present value calculation which is even more.
This notion that you get paid for a lifetime AFTER you quit working is bizarre to me. The benefit is elite status and completely unsustainable. This golden ticket for public employees is provided by people that could never reach this status through their own efforts.
I imagine you’re defensive because you’re the recipient of this type of windfall. It’s hard not to want to protect it. But the fact of the matter is that America is quickly approaching (I predict summer, 2012) what I refer to as Economic Armageddon Day. That is when the world will be sick of our financial irresponsibility and will decide to not recognize the dollar as the world’s currency standard.
You won’t have a choice at that time. The world will do it for you. Better to buck up now, learn the facts, and understand the topic a little better.
Mike McClellan posted at 5:13 pm on Mon, Sep 19, 2011.
Well. gilbertwatchdog, first, why don't you just use your name? What are you afraid of? Why don't you have the courage of your convictions?
Second, I wish I had seen Stossel's show -- hopefully, Fox will rerun it. But if it's like is "Stupid in America" from a few years ago, mixed in with valid points are distortions and cherry-picked facts. And Stossel tends to pick the most extreme examples and paint them as the norm. As you might know, gilbertwatchdog, public employee unions in our state have little clout due to the open shop laws here.
Third, your "80%" figure is at the top end of most public employee pensions; that is, a teacher, for example, would have to work almost 40 years to get that pension. And remember, the state requires most public employees to put in matching contributions; the state -- with the exception of the elected officials' pension -- only match the employees' contribution.
Fourth, while some do get above 80%, the vast majority don't even come close to that, and have anywhere from $600 -- $1200 a month taken from that pension for health insurance.
Fifth, as you might know, in the largest pension -- ASRS -- new employees no longer have a defined benefit but a defined contribution. That is, their retirement looks like anyone else's 401k.
Finally, your cherry-picking the 80% number is no different from someone on the Left cherry-picking the top CEO salaries and saying that we need to tax everyone making $200,000 or more because of those top salaries.
gilbertwatchdog posted at 5:43 pm on Sun, Sep 18, 2011.
Since Mike is a former teacher, we can all see where his allegience lies, but to see how both national and local teacher's unions hurt our children's education, all you need do is watch John Stossel's latest show "America is Stupid", which shows just how far (and how badly) the teacher's unions are willing to sacrifice our children's education to protect their own fiefdoms.
As to the other comments regarding various fire & police positions, there are huge differences between someone sitting at a desk job, or at a warehouse, vs. someone actually risking his (or her) life on a semi-regular basis trying to save a life. Same for the military folks. Big difference between a supply clerk and a Navy Seal, yet both serve, but based on their level of actual sacrifice (or risk) they should receive a different level of pay (and our gratitude).
And sorry, Mike, but even "if" you feel that a teacher, fireman, or cop should be able to retire early and get 80% (or more) in pension benefits for life, we simply can't afford that "perk" any longer (if we really ever could).
Rich posted at 6:46 pm on Fri, Sep 16, 2011.
Answered you at length, however I can't post because of 'profanity." Been through it four times and there isn't any so I guess that at least the censor at the Trib agrees with you. Would be nice to continue, especially two Vietnam vets, but apparently, that is not possible.
samkat posted at 5:42 pm on Fri, Sep 16, 2011.
Rich: I have Agent Orange related diabetes, Neuropathy and Ischemic Heart Disease plus a few other ailments as a result of my time in Vietnam but no holes. Unless you served more than one tour, I would say I have you hands down. PS: You obviously have a low regard for your relatives. I also failed to mention I have two associate degrees, and a BS in addition to my masters. I spent 20 years in the military and I can assure you that my time working for the Department of Defense was not welfare work. I put in a lot of 7 day weeks without overtime because we had mission requirements to support our war fighters. By the way, you have never said what kind of work you did or do. I am sure you have a full and meaningful career.
Rich posted at 6:48 pm on Thu, Sep 15, 2011.
samkat,
Actually I am related to several public sector employees. I know exactly what they consider 'work,' and it isn't. Outside of the armed forces the last one to do a day's work for a day's wages was fired in 1868 for his attitude. I have four degrees, and degrees like you mention. like 'aviation management' outside of academic fields, and five bucks, will get you a cup of coffee at Starbucks, if they haven't raised the price again. My cousin who works for a midwestern city has his masters in 'sports management.' My brother, who heads a department in a California county, barely got out of high school. You ever been 'under fire' I have. You all are and were welfare recipients, little else. because they gave you busy work doesn't mean you accomplished anything. If you had we wouldn't be in half the mess we are now. Live in reality.
samkat posted at 4:30 pm on Thu, Sep 15, 2011.
I suggest that both mnj and rick try working a public sector job before condemning the hard working employees. Its easy to criticize someone but perhaps harder to walk in their shoes.
mnj: there are very few if any public sector employees making multi million dollar pensions. I would like to see your information detailing these jobs. Perhaps you are referring the the fat cats in the private sector financial world. By the way, I also have a masters degree in business, economics and aviation management. I had a number of contracting and acquisition specialists working for me in the Defense Contracting and acquisition field. Every one of them required a minimum of a four year degree in the field of business, accounting, etc. Additionally they had to complete mandatory certification courses for the contracting and acquisition field they were assigned to. We were all subject to mandatory rotations, including fire areas such as Bosnia, Iraq and Afganistan. With your attitude, I doubt if you would be a good match for one of those positions.
Rich: You must be referring to private sector union jobs when you speak of 6 people to do the work of one.
Rich posted at 9:58 am on Thu, Sep 15, 2011.
Half a dozen men are necessary to do a job. A bureaucracy will hire two dozen, set them a slightly crossed purposes, to keep all of them working, and not do the job completely. Some one tries to reform it, the union goes on strike. Government is currently focused on the bureaucracy, not the jobs that need doing, So the jobs don't get done, or done well, costs about ten times what it needs to and makes people mad because it is so inefficient and so expensive. A few are heroes, granted, but most are really only collecting massive welfare payments to make it look like they are actually accomplishing something. We therefore have bushels of new laws enacted every year on every level of government, which only a few of the lunatic fringe even begin to understand, administered and enforced by a thousand clowns pouring out of a tiny car, and insisting they are necessary and require insurance, pensions and a higher salary than the private sector clowns because their union says so and unlike the private sector, the government's pockets are deep enough for them to get away with it.
mnjcpa posted at 9:57 am on Wed, Sep 14, 2011.
Sorry to disappoint samkat....but you couldn't pay me to have a public sector job. I like having my performance judged and reflected in my earnings rather than a job where you coast your entire working career.
And for my credentials - I'm a CPA with two masters degrees. One in business and one in tax so I do think that qualifies me to make an assessment.
Whether the scales have tipped back and forth for years is not relevant. What matters is the state of our economy now and what can be done to fix it.
Public sector jobs are paid for by taxes from people like me and my clients. It is impossible for a private sector employee to achieve this economic status. To be able to retire in your 50's with a multi-million dollar pension over a lifetime - when the taxpayer is paying for it - is abusive and very much a function of what chatmandu002 discusses above. The taxpayers pay for that benefit - not the public employee.
samkat posted at 7:13 pm on Tue, Sep 13, 2011.
mn: I would say there have been many private sector jobs that paid better than the public sector but then perhaps you were not one who scored one of those jobs. The public/private sector wages have a see/saw effect. During the boom times, the private sector fares better than the public sector. Conversely, during poor times, the public sector, any of whom struggled to make ends meet were looked down on are now doing better. Perhaps there is an envy factor involved. You could apply for one of those cushy public sector jobs. Of course, many of them require a college degree and special qualifications. Do you meet that criteria?
Leon Ceniceros posted at 6:10 pm on Tue, Sep 13, 2011.
The teacher's unions are whinning because there are no more "slops in the trough" for them to gobble up. The hard working tax-payers have said...."whoa Nellie"....let's put a bridle on ..."runaway" retirement and cost of living benefits for not only the teachers but all the Public Service Unions.
These Unions (not the members but the Union Leaders) forgot the definition of Public Service = Service to the Public.
No more "Cadillac health, dental, vision and hospitalization benefits"...the "Public" doesn't get them so why should the workers that "Serve" the Public get them.
No more $200,000.00 Retirement Pensions for Public Service "big shots" at age 60yo.
No more 50%, 60%,70% of the last years salary as a ...Pension. The "Public" doesn't get this much pension so why should the workers that "Serve" the Public get it.
No strike provision....PERIOD. The Public pays these workers to "serve" their protection, safety, utilitiy and transportation "Needs". If you want to "strike" to get extra benefits then go outside of the Public Service Sector and get a job.
Bottom line if you want to Teach....if you want to be a Firefighter or Law Enforcement Officer, Utility or Transportation worker then your first "Loyalty" belongs to the Public who are paying your salary...not to your Union Leaders.
chatmandu002 posted at 3:10 pm on Tue, Sep 13, 2011.
Mike,
The problem hasn't been with the public sector workers most of the time. The problem has been with the way the public sector unions bought, paid and extorted political leaders for exorbitant wages, health and retirement benefits. Now the public is suffering the years of excess of these agreements. The taxpayers are saying enough of this excess.
mnjcpa posted at 10:36 am on Tue, Sep 13, 2011.
The issue isn't whether an individual within a public sector union has done anything wrong by being a part of such a group. There's no question they serve us well. What is the issue are the unreasonable expectations that public employees unions expect the taxpayers to pay for.
I have a family member that has worked for the government for 30 years. She's retiring this year with 80% of her salary and health care benefits FOR LIFE at 57 years old. Based on her life expectancy that BENEFIT that TAXPAYERS pay for is a multi-million dollar pension.
This achievement is just not possible in the private sector and that's what people are upset about. I wonder how her neighbor feels about providing that benefit for her lifetime. Wisconsin proved that small businesses and taxpayers are tired of this nonsense and the system needs to be fair for everyone.