Upon viewing several TV shows developed on the basis of “profiling”, one would query the constant criticism directed at police profiling. Unless law enforcement witnesses the “smoking gun” or catches the perpetrator(s) walking out the door, most criminal investigations start with profiling, whether the ‘politically correct’ officials wish to admit it or not.
Profiling is an integral part of successful law enforcement. Law enforcement personnel become familiar, through training and experience, with habits, cultural values/ethics and quirks of the different factions making up our society, be they white, brown, yellow or black.
If the FBI and other law enforcement entities are permitted their “profiling units,” then why is profiling by front-line, first-defense beat officers deemed unconstitutional? Trust me, after 40 years in the trenches, call it what one may, but “profiling” is the root to most successful investigations and the majority of crimes wouldn’t be solved without the process taking place.
B. Jones
Queen Creek
Dale Whiting posted at 4:50 pm on Fri, Mar 30, 2012.
B.
The problem is that when profiling is based on nothing more than gender, nationality, race or ethnic origin, it's illegal. You're going to have to deal with this!
Leon Ceniceros posted at 5:47 pm on Fri, Mar 30, 2012.
Different ethnicities and races have common facial, hair and body conformation > CHARACTERISTICS.........PERIOD.
Just look at the Discovery Channel, Nova and other shows. When anthropologists reconstruct a skull to have a face.......Mayan skulls look like the Mayan Indians of Today. Viking skulls show that ancient Iceman look like the Northern Europeans of today....................there is nothing ........RACIST.....IT'S SCIENCE.
If you are a Border Patrol Officer or a Arizona Department of Public Service Officer and you see a white pick-up truck with a camper shell and 15 Mezo-American/Hispanic faces looking at you and the truck is going on a dirt road just north of the Mexico Border............WHAT SHOULD THESE TWO OFFICERS WHO HAVE SWORN TO UPHOLD THE LAWS OF OUR NATION (ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION) AND OUR STATE OF ARIZONA (SB 1070)......................Dale, what would you do.
1. Let the pickup with it's 18-20 passengers in 120F heat driving just north of the Mexican Border approxiamately 40 miles from the I-8 or the nearest 7-11 or Circle-K....continue on it's merry Way.
2. Or using your Law Enforcement training and skills and determine that this situation calls for further investigation because.........3,000,000 ILLEGAL ALIENS FROM MEXICO, GUATAMALA, HONDURAS, EL SALVADOR (INCLUDING A SPRINKLING OF YEMENI'S, AFGHAN'S, PAKISTANI'S, SAUDI ARABIAN'S, IRANIAN'S, IRAQI'S, SOMALIAN'S AND OTHER POTENTIAL 9/11 WANNA-BE'S) HAVE CROSSED THE BORDER INTO OUR COUNTRY AT THE VERY SAME SPOT FOR THE PAST ZILLION YEARS.
3. READER..........PUT YOURSELF IN THE PLACE OF LAW ENFORCEMENT AND ASK YOURSELF WHAT WOULD YOU DO........USE A PROFILE OR NOT ???
Rational Human posted at 6:33 pm on Fri, Mar 30, 2012.
The problem is that those who continually use the race card as a defense to cripple law enforcement can only see race and nothing else. Race is and will always be a part of profiling. If you are a border agent on our southern border you don't usually look at Caucasians as possibly illegal aliens. Hispanics are the greatest portion of people illegally crossing into the states, so it's natural and proper to use this category as part of an overall profile. TSA gropes very young children and little old ladies as a way to prove that they don't profile. Very PC of them, but not very bright.
Arizona Willie posted at 10:45 pm on Fri, Mar 30, 2012.
Rational Human, the problem with NOT searching old people or babies is that they are IDEAL people to plant a bomb with.
The babies don't have any idea what is going on.
A relative or someone could plant a device in their diapers and they couldn't tell TSA.
The old people might be convinced to carry the bomb because they are almost dead anyway --- not much to lose but a year or two of pain and illness. If they can be converted to the religious / philosophical concepts that the U.S. is evil by terrorists they make great carriers.
Even in everyday life people generally aren't suspicious of elderly people. They don't think about the fact that prisons turn many old people loose every year who may have spent 30 or more years in prison and crime is the only thing they know.
Not all old people are kindly grandfathers / grandmothers. Most are ... but blindly trusting them could be a huge mistake.
Dale Whiting posted at 3:40 am on Sat, Mar 31, 2012.
Say what you will, guys. But profiling is illegal. And yes, people do profile. Just look at the KKK!
Rational Human posted at 7:43 am on Sat, Mar 31, 2012.
Saying profiling is illegal is the stupidest thing I've read in a while. The FBI has profilers who are experts at it. Federal immigration authorities by law are allowed to use race as a profile of who may or may not be an illegal alien. The Obamanation's DOJ doesn't want our local cops to use race as a criteria for determining legal status, but they do it and it's written policy. Dale you don't know very much about the law, so I suggest you not try to pretend that you do.
Rational Human posted at 7:54 am on Sat, Mar 31, 2012.
Arizona Willie, who exactly was responsible for 9-11? Have we really become so paranoid of bombs on planes that we need to grope little kids to make certain they don't have bombs? If you look closely at the two instances of people trying to blow planes up you'll see who we should be watching very carefully. Non-White and Muslim come to mind. Oh but that would be profiling and Mr Psychobabble wants us to believe that's against the law. I'd love to see him quote this law he writes about.
Dale Whiting posted at 8:01 am on Sat, Mar 31, 2012.
Rational Human,
Sure the FBI has professional profilers, people who study patterns of criminal activity to help identify specific persons who may be responsible. But here we are talking about non professional profilers, those policemen and women who may be on the neighborhood beat. When they profile based on nothing more than the appearance of a person, their race, color, gender or apparent ethic origin, they violate the law. And saying so is not "stupid." ITS THE LAW!
Boy do you have a lot to learn!
Arizona Willie posted at 8:13 am on Sat, Mar 31, 2012.
Rational Human -- I agree that profiling is a good and necessary thing. When someone robs a convenience store and the clerk says it was an Oriental male, the cops don't start stopping hispanics or negroes looking for the robber ... they stop Orientals. It's only logical.
But, the terrorists are not stupid. They change their game plan from time to time. When attempts get stopped they try something else.
They send suicide bombers into public places and kill people indiscriminately without regard to age, sex, nationality. They are perfectly happy to kill babies. Doesn't bother them at all.
So whose to say they might not slip a device into a babies stroller?
If they discover we have a policy of NOT checking babies they certainly would.
The terrorists have already won ... we are scared spitless of even getting on an airplane now. They have terrorized us -- AND WON.
IMNSHO I think we should announce that if terrorists attack us we will attack any country where they trained / resided / originated with nukes --- AND DO IT.
We would only have to do it once.
End of problem.
Rational Human posted at 8:58 am on Sat, Mar 31, 2012.
Dale,
Again you, like the Hispanic race baiters are saying a county sheriff or city policeman can't be professionally trained to profile criminals and will only use race in determining legality. That is being used in an attempt to cripple law enforcement against people of color. Federal immigration authorities are allowed to use race as a criteria to determine legal status in our country, but SB1070 specifically denies peace officers that same right. The idea that cops are going to or do use only race in determining criminality is absurd and is usually only used by race baiters like sharpton and jackson. For a professed conservative you sure do keep strange company.
Rational Human posted at 9:08 am on Sat, Mar 31, 2012.
Arizona Willie, I didn't say we shouldn't be checking babies and frail little old ladies. I believe I did point out that of all the bombers and the 9-11 plotters all were non-White and Muslim. We waste time and money checking everyone and anyone when we should be a little bit more selective about it. Just ask yourself who wants to kill Americans, and you answer the question about who we should be checking most thoroughly. The problem is that we have been crippled by race baiting ambulance chasers like sharpton and jackson and many others that race is somehow not to ever be used as a criteria for suspicion. It's absurd and most people know it, but even saying the obvious here will be considered as racism by many, and others who know better will stay quiet for fear they too will be labeled as a racist.
Dale Whiting posted at 9:42 am on Sat, Mar 31, 2012.
Leon,
Sorry, I did not see your question asking me what I would do. First, if I were a Border Patrol Agent, I'd follow strictly my agency's guidelines, something I doubt Sheriff Joe would be doing. Otherwise, he'd not have lost his authority to help the Fed's enforce immigration law. And since I don't know precisely what those agency guidelines are, I can't comment further.
If I would a DPS officer operating near the border, I'd have done liasion with the Border Patrol and likely would have been given some guidelines. I doubt DPS has gotten into border enforcement. Perhaps you could tell us more. But last time I looked into this matter DPS was not patrolling dirt roads! So at best, I suppose I'd get a plate number, run it, and see what turned up, then report it through the system to the Border Patrol. And assuming I and the pickup were headed down that dirt road [highly unlikely] I'd follow it and see what turned up.
For what it's worth, local police often follow vehicles at night looking for excuses to stop them and smell the breath of the driver. A nonfunctioning turn signal is excuse enough! Once I got stopped for weaving across into the bicycle lane. I was reaching for something on the passenger seat and naturally pulled a bit toward the right. I got stopped but I had no passengers, let alone any illegal ones.
Probable cause is always needed. But profiling is not permitted. Yet I would not be surprised to learn that under the circumstances you cite, the Border Patrol would be stopping. The profiling includes both location and vehicle condition, not just those desperate faces you cite.
Dale Whiting posted at 9:43 am on Sat, Mar 31, 2012.
Oops! "If I were a DPS officer"[wink]
fairygirl posted at 12:54 pm on Sat, Mar 31, 2012.
Profiling done by an experienced unbiased profiler has it's merits. It's the mind and expertise of the profiler that should matter.
Dale Whiting posted at 1:30 pm on Sat, Mar 31, 2012.
Yes, fairygirl, there are merits in professionals who are trained extensively in objective profiling. The TV show "Criminal Minds" shows us what profiling can do. It is based on the FBI's profliing unit at Quantico VA. But you can bet your bottom dollar than no one on the Sanford Florida PD is that well trained. And it would appear that Zimmerman is not trained to do anything closely related to criminal law, not being a guard, a bouncer, a neighborhood watchman, and even carrying that 9mm.
And when profiling is based upon gender, race, national origin or alike, and nothing more, it is illegal.
Rational Human posted at 4:08 pm on Sat, Mar 31, 2012.
Dale why do you keep posting that lie? Show me the law criminalizing profiling when profiling is based upon gender, race, national origin or alike, and nothing more. You can't do it because there is no law.
AZ Willie, watch this short video and tell me if it strikes you as a sane approach to securing airplanes from bombers. This actually happens.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=wu2yzPYGsfk#!
Slabside posted at 4:17 pm on Sat, Mar 31, 2012.
Profiling IS necessary. Profiling is performed constantly at Tel Aviv's Ben Gurion Airport. When is the last time they suffered a terrorist related incident there? Profiling must be part of today's society to ensure everyone's safety despite all of the bleeding heart liberal manure posted against it.
Dale Whiting posted at 3:33 am on Sun, Apr 1, 2012.
Irrational, uninformed Human,
It's called "probable cause!" When police stop someone under circumstances where they cannot express probable cause to invade privacy, the fruits of their stop are thown out. It's the law of the Land based upon the US Constitution as interpreted by our Supreme Court! And probable cause excludes mere profiling on the basis of gender, race, ethnic origin, etc. Just try getting a warrant from a judge based upon the fact that "It's a blackman running around in North Scottsdale!" Jogging is legal! So is living, regardless of gender, race, ethnic orgin, etc.
Dale Whiting posted at 8:35 am on Sun, Apr 1, 2012.
P.S. to Slabside,
It's not a bleeding heart that we true conservatives have. It's a profound respect for the Constitution, one you reserve for only one amendment, the second!
Slabside posted at 10:53 am on Sun, Apr 1, 2012.
Sorry to burst your condescending narcissist bubble Dale but you are anything but a true conservative. More like a progressive liberal. The closest you come to being conservative is when you see a picture of Ronald Reagan. Now run along and play. The adults are posting here.
In_God_We_Trust posted at 11:59 am on Sun, Apr 1, 2012.
If Dale isn't a progressive socialist then George Washington wasn't the first president.
In_God_We_Trust posted at 12:07 pm on Sun, Apr 1, 2012.
When police pull over a truck or van loaded down with Hispanics driving north from the border they are profiling based on nothing but race. Are the illegal aliens just allowed to continue on their way because the police used nothing but race to justify pulling the van or truck over? No Dale they are not. A Black man running around in a predominately White neighborhood is going to be looked at very carefully and questioned if he acts in any way suspicious. If he is found to be a felon with a gun or has in his possession burglary tools I very much doubt a judge will toss the case. You live in a delusion Dale. Maybe Mr Psychobabble's name should be changed to Delusional Dale. I believe we have probable cause to request this change.
Slabside posted at 12:38 pm on Sun, Apr 1, 2012.
Delusional Dale. I like it Trust!
In_God_We_Trust posted at 7:27 pm on Sun, Apr 1, 2012.
Delusional Dale pretends to be a conservative republican and to have a profound respect for the constitution, but like all progressive socialists he supports the federal government's usurping of state's rights. You are not judged by what you call yourself but by your deeds and actions. Dale, you are a progressive socialist indeed.
samkat posted at 9:13 pm on Sun, Apr 1, 2012.
Trust: You nailed it. :-)
k33j88 posted at 11:26 pm on Sun, Apr 1, 2012.
If dale gets a job as a border agent, we're all in a world of hurt. Great point slabside. Israel's got it right-----no planes blowing up there.
Dale Whiting posted at 2:38 am on Mon, Apr 2, 2012.
Sticks and stones, guys. Sticks and stones.
In January 2009, at the close of President George W. Bush's second term in office, Jonathan Clarke, a senior fellow at the Carnegie Council for Ethics in International Affairs, proposed the following as the "main characteristics of neoconservatism":
"a tendency to see the world in binary good/evil terms
[black hat-white hat thinking]
low tolerance for diplomacy
[lets make war on Iran, not peace]
readiness to use military force
[after all, the axis of evil cannot be trusted]
emphasis on US unilateral action
[after all, aren't we the good guys!]
disdain for multilateral organizations
[you know that GHW Bush new world order]
focus on the Middle East
[It's all the Muslim's fault. We are blameless, good guys!]
an us-versus-them mentality".
[we're the good guys. Jesus didn't know what he was talking about!]
For you Neo-cons, the forgoing shoe fits perfectly! I distinguish my way of viewing the world, through the looking glasses of Barry Goldwater and Bill Buckley, as being conservative, exercising conservative values and principles, as opposed to your way of having the wool pulled over your eyes and driving with the hood up! At least you still shine that hood ornament! But that's about it!
Slabside posted at 10:55 am on Mon, Apr 2, 2012.
Dale, you forgot to include "I'm rubber, you're glue" in your childish attempt to spin your way out of the light everyone has shined on you. [beam][beam][beam][beam][beam]
Dale Whiting posted at 9:13 pm on Mon, Apr 2, 2012.
Slabside,
Light you say? I see the light. It's you Neocons who are all fogged up!
I have predicted that the SCOTUS will rule the healthcare act as unconstitutional. And I have stated why I would agree with that decision. But I have also stated what ought to be done to fix that problem up. And the President agrees. He first supported the public option. It does not infring upon the commerce clause. But he had to settle for the mandate, a conservative concept! Explain that, guys!
But the real problem with this healthcare initiative is that it does not address the fundamental problems which Medicare and Medicaid have built into our US healthcare system. And I have detailed those flaws before, too.
Slabside posted at 9:18 pm on Mon, Apr 2, 2012.
Dale, on this we agree.