I am appalled that my mother who is 88 years old, born in New England and recently moved to Arizona, has been denied registration to vote. She went to the motor vehicle office with her Florida voter registration, Florida state issued picture ID (she is blind and does not drive) and social security card. She was denied and told she must produce a birth certificate, which she does not have.
Thirty-two states besides Arizona have passed proof-of-citizenship laws ostensibly to prevent voter fraud. Such laws are a fix for a non-existent problem. More importantly, 32 of these laws were passed in states with Republican-controlled legislatures and signed by Republican governors.
These laws disenfranchise about 10 million voters, primarily elderly and poor, who are the most unlikely to be able to produce the necessary proof because they are perceived as being less likely to vote Republican.
They are immoral and blatant attempts to manipulate elections. The courts have been striking down some of these laws but probably not quick enough to prevent them from affecting the November election. For shame, Republicans!
Stephen Sapareto
Apache Junction
AZJenjen posted at 11:31 am on Sat, Sep 15, 2012.
Requiring that a person be able to verify their identity is NOT disenfranchisement - it's sensible. The amount of voter fraud perpetrated in the 2008 election which vaulted an unknown, inexperienced individual into the White House should have never happened. Voter fraud IS a widespread problem in our country.
What IS shameful is the democrats suppressing military votes... now THAT'S something to be ashamed about.
onerebel posted at 12:15 pm on Sat, Sep 15, 2012.
AZJenjen, you 100% right about the military vote. It is a shame that we have to show ID. Because of groups like ACORN who's motto is" vote, and vote several times each election." We are required to show photo ID's for many things now days. It was even required to get into the Democrats convention. So Stephen, before you blame the other side make sure you know what your side did to encourage it!
downtownresident posted at 12:48 pm on Sat, Sep 15, 2012.
AZJenjen,
It's a sad state of affairs when delusional republicans such as you spread lies such as you have done here.
You should be ashamed of yourself. But, then again, most of you radical right wing fanatics think you are above honesty and ethics.
You seem to have forgotten how Bush STOLE the election from Gore. You're a real piece of work.
You voted for Pearce, I'll bet[sad]
Leon Ceniceros posted at 1:40 pm on Sat, Sep 15, 2012.
So sorry Stephen.........but the Constitution clearly states that the right to Vote is given only to Natural born or Naturalized Citizens (14th Amendment). Just saying someone is a Citizen....doesn't cut the mustard. There has to be proof.
The Founding Fathers left it up to the individual States to determine .."Voting Qualifications".
America is a Nation of Laws.........you don't like the Constitution...then...Change it. But don't blame Republicans or Democrats or Independents or even the Greens.
DemocraticDad posted at 2:34 pm on Sat, Sep 15, 2012.
Between 2000 and 2010, there were:
649 million votes cast in general elections in the US with 13 credible cases of in-person voter impersonation.
If anyone can prove me wrong please do so.
You see, having Voter ID laws is a solution to a non-existent problem. It is based on the views of Paul Weyrich, conservative right wing founder of the Heritage Foundation, who said that when less people vote Republicans win.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8GBAsFwPglw
The goal of the Voter ID laws is to disenfranchise voters who just MIGHT vote for Democrats; elderly people like Stephen's mom, poor people who can't afford to get a photo ID, students (in some states hunting licenses are ok for ID, but student registrations are not), people with disabilities who may have physical challenges that prevent them from getting to the location where IDs are given, etc.
As a matter of fact, there was MUCH more fraud (still a miniscule amount) during that 2000-2010 period with mail in ballots, yet NONE of the Voter ID laws coming out of any of the states deal with that. Why? Because MORE Republicans vote that way than Democrats or Independents.
onerebel posted at 2:43 pm on Sat, Sep 15, 2012.
Redsox420 or Jayson or enraged or whoever you are today. To say there is no voter fraud is as dumb as saying their is no robberies. You talk about how all the bad Republican's will try anything if there is something to gain from it, yet NOBODY would try and scam the voting system? Yeah Right.
http://www.usnews.com/debate-club/is-voter-fraud-a-real-problem/voter-fraud-deniers-ignore-the-facts
http://conservativesnow.com/fighting-voter-fraud/fight-voter-fraud
Mike McClellan posted at 2:51 pm on Sat, Sep 15, 2012.
Redsox is right on the mark -- in fact, the Fox News lie about Obama wanting to suppress military voting is exactly the opposite of the truth (but Fox News specializes in the Big Lie, so who can be surprised if their acolytes believe it?)
In fact, what the Dems were doing was trying to EXTEND voting for Ohioans living in the state, giving them the same amount of time to vote as the military. No one's vote was suppressed.
But we know that there are states where voter suppression IS happening -- Republican-controlled ones, including Penn., where the state's AG said that their goal was to give that state to Romney. And in their defense of the voter id law, stipulated that they had no -- zero -- examples of voter fraud.
In fact, as DDad notes above, there's no proof of miniscule voter fraud, let alone the widespread fraud Fox News' Big Lie Machine claims.
While I have no problem with id for voting, you better make sure that voters have an easy way to access getting that id (which is why, for example, Texas id law is held up in courts -- lower court found that the state doesn't provide adequate ways for citizens to procure valid id).
But we know what's really going on here -- this is the Republican attempt to suppress Democratic votes just enough to squeak Romney into the Presidency.
It's shameful.
onerebel posted at 3:22 pm on Sat, Sep 15, 2012.
So Mike, your telling me my nephew and his fellow soldiers in Afghanistan are not being truthful about voting changes? So FOX lies? I hate when the media lies about things, could you please provide proof of your claim of lies on FOX News? Meanwhile his is a link about the military voting.
http://hotair.com/archives/2012/08/03/obama-democrats-suing-to-block-military-voting-in-ohio/
http://www.norcalblogs.com/gate/2012/08/obama-sues-to-stop-military-personal-from-voting-in-swing-state-of-ohio.php
redsox420 posted at 3:37 pm on Sat, Sep 15, 2012.
@ onerebel.. YOU LIE. http://www.usatoday.com/news/politics/story/2012-08-07/fact-check-obama-ohio-military-voting/56859922/1
http://mediamatters.org/blog/2012/08/03/foxs-evening-news-show-lies-about-military-voti/189122
FACT IS President Obama actually supported early voting for ALL Ohioans, NOT just the military. Never ever did President Obama want to take away the military members right to vote. What was happening was the Repubelicant party of Ohio thought it would be better to allow ONLY the military an extension to vote, and stop early voting for the rest of Ohioans. Sadly another GOPher can't read..
Arizona Willie posted at 4:55 pm on Sat, Sep 15, 2012.
No one KNOWS how much vote fraud there is.
If a person uses the Federal Voter Registration Form, all they have to do is check the box that says they swear they are a citizen and sign the form.
It is ILLEGAL for the Voter Registration people to check the applicants citizenship.
They have to take your word for it.
La Raza is well aware of this. They are also well aware that it is next to impossible to get caught because IT IS ILLEGAL FOR ANYONE TO CHECK THEIR CITIZENSHIP ON THE VOTER APPLICATION.
They cannot check your citizenship at the polling place either.
So tell me please, how anyone would KNOW how much or how little fraud there was.
It is only logical that an illegal alien, who has been taught by La Raza, that he can register and vote for politicians who say they will let him stay here legally, that he would do that.
Especially when they tell him that they cannot check his citizenship or even ask him at the voter registration. It's on the honor system.
ONCE AGAIN -- IT IS ILLEGAL TO CHECK A PERSON'S CITIZENSHIP WHEN THEY REGISTER TO VOTE.
THERE IS NO WAY TO KNOW HOW MUCH FRAUD THERE IS.
Arizona Willie posted at 4:57 pm on Sat, Sep 15, 2012.
And you can even go into the polling place and speak only Spanish and they STILL won't check your citizenship.
onerebel posted at 6:10 pm on Sat, Sep 15, 2012.
"420 opens a persons mind to reality Not the way you sea it." 420 you are true entertainment. I got my birthday present early. Here is a bonus for you, I voted FOR that law. Man am I glad I did!
AZ Willie, that's the problem we don't know how much fraud there is. I suspect there is less then some in the GOP claim, and more then some of the Democrats claim. What is puzzling is why would anyone be against proving who you are before voting? A few months back some people on here claimed more poor people on welfare were Democrats. Then the counter argument was ( with supposed statistics) that there are more Republican's that are poor. We could ask which is it, but does it really matter? We need to make sure anyone that wants to and is LEGALLY ALLOWED, gets to vote. One time per election.
samkat posted at 8:49 pm on Sat, Sep 15, 2012.
If the liberals were so concerned about folks lacking proper identification, they would actually do something about it instead of constantly whining. I personally have no problems in providing ID when asked so why should anyone else who is a law abiding citizen? After all voting is a right and a privilege conferred to all legal citizens. Proving who you say you are should not be all that difficult. In this age of electronics, virtually everyone has a social security card which means they provided some sort of proof to obtain it. Heck, you cannot even see a doctor or be admitted to a hospital except in an emergency without ID, In fact, even in cases of emergencies, in most cases they are still demanding proof that is unless you are an illegal.
PS: Perhaps Mr. Sapareto is stretching the truth just a tad. His mother is 88 and went to the MVD to register to vote? She is blind so obviously she must have had someone take her but for what purpose? She should have actually been contacting the county registar as opposed to MVD.
mrconservative posted at 9:22 pm on Sat, Sep 15, 2012.
Bush NEVER stole the election from Gore. He won it fair and square. Get over it, you whinin' liberals.
mrconservative posted at 9:25 pm on Sat, Sep 15, 2012.
Mike, there is PLENTY of voter fraud - you just have to know where to find it. Back in 2004, someone tried to register to vote under the name Mary Poppins! And more recently, someone tried to register their dog to vote.
Guess what? Both were DEMOCRATS!
Or maybe we should just call the Demonrats. It fits better.
Cerulean posted at 9:40 pm on Sat, Sep 15, 2012.
samkat said, “His mother is 88 and went to the MVD to register to vote? She is blind so obviously she must have had someone take her but for what purpose? She should have actually been contacting the county registar as opposed to MVD.”
Not so. She can register to vote at MVD. She can register at the same time she applies for an Arizona picture ID. If she or her son had checked the MVD website before they made the trip and waited in a long line, they would have discovered a list of all the necessary types of identification required to do both.
chatmandu002 posted at 10:38 am on Sun, Sep 16, 2012.
Stephen,
Voting is a right, privilege and responsibility of citizenship. Proving you are a citizens is your responsibility. Your cry about your mother not being allowed to register isn't genuine or applicable. Your mother should always have a copy of her birth certificate and you should have helped her get one.
Mike McClellan posted at 11:17 am on Sun, Sep 16, 2012.
Mr. Conservative, two instances of phony voter registration hardly equate to rampant fraud.
Did either of those two actually vote? Nope.
Did either of those two have an iota of effect on an election? Nope.
President Bush's Department of Justice conducted a nation-wide, five-year investigation of voter fraud.
The results? A grand total of 86 instances of voter fraud in over 200 million votes cast in that time.
Hardly rampant voter fraud. The fraud is in the Republican phony voter fraud concern, when we all know their concern is making sure Republicans win elections.
Arizona Willie posted at 8:42 am on Mon, Sep 17, 2012.
Mr. McClellan -- would you please explain how the Department of Justice investigated voter fraud?
How could they possibly know who was an illegal voter when IT IS ILLEGAL TO CHECK AN APPLICANTS CITIZENSHIP? Yes, I'm screaming.
The only way I've heard of that illegal voters get caught is when they get called for jury duty and say they are not citizens in order to get out of jury duty and the jury duty possibles are selected from the rolls of registered voters.
Other than that, or someone who personally knew the person voting and saw them at the polls and knew the person was not a citizen == there is absolutely NO WAY to get caught.
Why wouldn't illegal aliens vote for people who say they will let them stay here legally when they know it is almost impossible to get caught?
They have shown total disregard for our laws in the first place by coming here illegally and most of them have committed identity theft in order to work. So they are hardly worried about our laws.
La Raza, and other hispanic organizations, are well aware that our voting system is on the honor system and that they can register and vote and the odds of being hit by lightening twice in the same day are higher than their odds of getting caught.
Hispanics are NOT stupid people.
It would be in their interest to vote illegally for politicians who say they will let them stay legally.
If you think La Raza isn't signing people up --- well it might be a good idea if you thought that over a bit more.
Mike McClellan posted at 9:22 am on Mon, Sep 17, 2012.
Arizona Willie, You might want to read the Times article today about voter fraud, and how so little of it has actually been proven.
Do you or anyone else have ANY proof that "La Raza" is signing up massive numbers of illegal immigrants to vote? Do you or anyone else have proof that there was any kind of massive voter fraud in any recent elections?
If you have the proof, you ought to present it, not just here but to local voting authorities around the state and country.
If you don't, your speculation is not worth much.
Arizona Willie posted at 10:05 am on Mon, Sep 17, 2012.
McClellan, since IT IS ILLEGAL TO CHECK THE CITIZENSHIP OF A VOTER there is no way to prove anything one way or the other.
However, some of us are capable of logical thought.
People tend to do things in their own self interest ( except middle class and lower class people who vote Republican ) and it would be logical to expect illegal aliens to register and vote for people who want them to stay legally. Especially since it is virtually impossible for them to get caught.
My speculation is worth every bit as much as the so-called Justice Department investigation into voter fraud when there is absolutely no way to determine who was a legal voter because it is against the law to check the citizenship of a voter.
Prove to me that La Raza ISN'T signing up illegals to vote.
Prove to me that illegal aliens have no reason to vote illegally for people who will let them stay legally.
Illegal aliens would be STUPID not to vote illegally, and hispanics are NOT stupid.
Mike McClellan posted at 1:18 pm on Mon, Sep 17, 2012.
Willie, proving a negative is an old debate trick. Good try. Prove to me you don't beat your wife. Or kids. Or parents.
Again, you have no proof of your claims. So you are only speculating. Speculation is fine -- I speculate that you are cousins with Russell Pearce. I speculate that you are the love child of Ronald Reagan and Anne Coulter.
That's about what your speculation is worth.
Arizona Willie posted at 3:04 pm on Mon, Sep 17, 2012.
McClellan ... my speculation that illegal aliens are being registered to vote illegally is worth every bit as much as your speculation that illegal aliens don't vote.
Since it is ILLEGAL TO CHECK A VOTERS CITIZENSHIP there is no way to prove things one way or the other.
We can, however, apply standard logic and that says it would be logical for illegals to vote for people who say they will let them stay legally.
It would be against their own self-interest to refuse to register and vote illegally since the odds of getting caught are astronomical and they want to stay here. I know if I were in their shoes I wouldn't hesitate a minute. Why would they? They are already wanted criminals who can be deported if they are caught. Certain politicians are promising to let them stay in the country legally. It would be stoopid not to support those politicians who are supporting them.
The only way to resolve this is to make it legal for the Voter Registration people to check an applicant's citizenship and have everyone re-register.
As long as we have to let people vote on the honor system ... people without honor will vote.
Engaged Voter posted at 5:18 pm on Mon, Sep 17, 2012.
Willie - I understand (and appreciate) your concerns, and I share most of them.
However I must side with McClellan on the issue of providing evidence for a claim.
The "prove that X isn't _____" is a logical fallacy. It's like demanding that you prove a fire breathing dragon ISN'T in my basement, and when you can't demanding that you acknowledge the existence of my dragon. Which is silly (replace a few key words there and you have the majority of religious "debate material").
That said, if there IS voter fraud on the level you speculate, how would you go about proving it?
That's the problem...I could say "Our votes don't count and never did! It's all rigged" and you could reply "can you prove it?"...which could get a reply of "prove it DOESN'T happen!". Do you see why this doesn't work?
Again, I agree somewhat with your speculation. I simply must reject all faith-based (without evidence) views based on their merit (or lack thereof).
onerebel posted at 8:12 pm on Mon, Sep 17, 2012.
Funny how Redsox420 complains about censorship, yet it was my posts with links to check the facts that vanished. If you can't dispute the facts do the next best thing, make the facts go away! Well done Comrade!
Arizona Willie posted at 8:51 am on Tue, Sep 18, 2012.
Engaged Voter, I well understand that you cannot prove a negative.
My purpose has been to point out that it is crazy to have voting be on the honor system.
McClellan had made the statement that illegals don't vote -- as an absolute fact, when it is only his opinion.
I challenged that and he responded wiith a statement that the Justice Department investigate and found virtually no voter fraud.
I challenged that and asked him to show me how the Justice Department investigated that since it is illegal to check a voter applicants citizenship and thus there is no way to get any kind of accurate count since only the very few rare cases show up in situations I mentioned like people trying to get out of jury duty.
He had no response for that.
As I said in one of the posts on the subject, no one can prove this one way or the other because IT IS ILLEGAL TO CHECK AN APPLICANTS CITIZENSHIP.
We are probably the only major country in the world that does not require people to show proof of citizenship in order to vote.
We also have millions of invading people that some politicians promise to let stay legally.
Would it not be logical to expect many of those invaders to illegally vote for someone who will make them legal? Especially when it is virtually impossible to get caught?
My entire purpose in this discussion is to point out the insanity of having an ' on your honor ' voting system.
The invaders have no honor or they would have come here legally and would not commit the crime of identity theft etc. etc.
They have already demonstrated that they have no regard for our country our it's laws. All they want is our money.
We desperately need the law changed at the Federal level to require proof of citizenship to register to vote and at the polls.
We are failing to protect our borders and we are failing to protect one of our most precious rights as Citizens of the United States of America -- THE RIGHT TO VOTE.
Willie - I understand (and appreciate) your concerns, and I share most of them.
However I must side with McClellan on the issue of providing evidence for a claim.
The "prove that X isn't _____" is a logical fallacy. It's like demanding that you prove a fire breathing dragon ISN'T in my basement, and when you can't demanding that you acknowledge the existence of my dragon. Which is silly (replace a few key words there and you have the majority of religious "debate material").
That said, if there IS voter fraud on the level you speculate, how would you go about proving it?
That's the problem...I could say "Our votes don't count and never did! It's all rigged" and you could reply "can you prove it?"...which could get a reply of "prove it DOESN'T happen!". Do you see why this doesn't work?
Again, I agree somewhat with your speculation. I simply must reject all faith-based (without evidence) views based on their merit (or lack thereof).
VofReason posted at 12:43 pm on Tue, Sep 18, 2012.
This is the classic over reaction. I am sure if the story the author tells is true, everyone should be concerned about it. This would seem to be a story that any and all of the local news shows would love to follow up on and get answers for. I would encourage our friend to reach out to local TV and have them follow up for all of our understanding of this problem. My guess is it is a red herring. Does anyone complain about having to show ID when going through the airport that it keeps the dienfranchised from flying. Right. If true, lets see it in the bright lights. If not, don't make a silly non arguement about the difficulty of showing ID before voting.
My Take posted at 12:49 pm on Tue, Sep 18, 2012.
When you have Detroit extending hours for voting in high republican areas, but eliminating them in high democrat areas that is purging.
Pennsylvania isn't even hiding it. There is video where it clearly shows that they are trying to fix the election for Romney.
Rick Scott of Florida same thing.
What this tells me is Republicans know they have a losing message and a phony candidate who can't win on the merits.
VofReason posted at 1:17 pm on Wed, Sep 19, 2012.
Yes My Take, Detroit that strident Republican stronghold. Yes, Detroit the city known for tight control of the size of Government and government expenditures. Where do you get your information? What's next? The evil Republicans in Chicago are preventing Teachers from doing their jobs. That is rich.
sockratties posted at 11:06 am on Thu, Sep 20, 2012.
The voter suppression effort is much more sinister than most of us think. Follow the money. It will lead you to the effort to put politicians who are sympathetic to the agenda of the American Legislative Exchange Council (ALEC) into office.
ALEC is a membership organization of state legislators who work with corporations (behind closed doors) to promote “model” bills. Although they pay membership dues, more than 98% of the cost, promotion and operation of ALEC is funded by large corporations such as Koch Industries. Participating legislators are conservative Republicans who then introduce these bills in their respective statehouses as if they were their own ideas.
Voter suppression is only one agenda. Those who are least likely to be able to secure adequate ID are low income (transportation and access), physically disabled (transportation and access), college students away from home (address conflicts and time in residence), etc. These voters are also least likely to vote for a conservative candidate.
ALEC also models bills that are designed to gut education (check out what happened in Wake school district in North Carolina), privatize schools, gut the EPA (because Koch Industries and Georgia Pacific is the dirtiest industry in the US), minimize government regulation, destroy the unions (remember Gov. Walker in Wisconsin), limit the rights of workers to claim for industrial injury, limit class action suits, privatize Medicare and deregulate health insurers, privatize prison systems while extending prison terms, and much, much more.
Voter suppression is only the tip of the iceberg. Americans for Prosperity (AFP) is the political arm of the Koch funded foundation; a major player (usually behind the scenes along with FreedomWorks, another Koch funded organization) in the Tea Party. This is an example of the carefully choreographed propaganda being swallowed whole by good, patriotic Americans who are unaware of the Koch intent to dismantle the American way of life.