I am a 15-year-old working on my Eagle Scout Award. One of the requirements is that I write a letter to the editor of a newspaper and express my opinion on a subject of my choice. After reading all of the vents and letters in your newspaper on waterboarding, I chose that as my subject of choice. Now, I agree with all the posts that waterboarding is inhumane. However, it is significantly better than what our “friends” in the Middle East do to all of our brave men and women in arms. So, while it may not be humane, if the information we are getting saves lives then I am all for it!
Hayden Threet
Mesa
truth posted at 3:09 pm on Sun, May 20, 2012.
Hayden, you can't justify your actions by what others do. A time in history the church believed human souls were saved by tieing victims to a pole and burning them to death. cleansing the soul by fire.Torture consisted of garroteing, quartering, beheading. One can only prove torturing will make one admit to anything, Most experts agree you can extract more reliable information not using torture.
hadenough posted at 3:13 pm on Sun, May 20, 2012.
What do you think about the police beating confessions out of suspects in order to prevent future crimes?
Leon Ceniceros posted at 3:34 pm on Sun, May 20, 2012.
What a wonderful change to see a young "American" who reads newspapers and has the guts to put his name on a Letter to the Editor. Most of the Liberal/Progressive/Democrat commenters that appear in the EVT don't have 1/100th of the "guts" that this 15year old has. They hide their identity behind "cutsie-woosie" names.
I hope that you will also decide to join the Military, even for a 3-4 year enlistment or to try for a place at one of the Service Academies, if that is possible. We need young people like you in the Military, young people who "love" our Country and what it stands for.
Good Luck, Mr. Threet, in what ever path you will follow in the future. Your Letter to the Editor has given many, many of us older Americans here in the East Valley hope for the Future of America.
Rational Human posted at 4:31 pm on Sun, May 20, 2012.
How can you compare water boarding with burning at the stake and torture consisting of garroteing, quartering, beheading? Water boarding isn't torture any more than any other method that produces discomfort without leaving any scars or lasting physical damage. Namby pamby liberals seem to want all prisoners afforded 5 star hotel accommodations or they say it's torture. If I were running the prison batteries and electrodes would be used. If it saves even one innocent life it's justified.
sockratties posted at 5:01 pm on Sun, May 20, 2012.
Hayden -- good work on your scouting achievements. By reading your letter it looks to me like you have come to several conclusions;
1) water boarding is inhumane,
2) information acquired from torture may or may not be reliable,
3) we can adjust our moral and ethical standards depending on who our captives are,
and finally:
4) the end justifies the means.
How do you correlate those conclusions with the Boy Scout Oath and Boy Scout Law?
Luckily you are only 15 and have time to weigh your conclusions. Imagine sometime in the future when you may or may not be able to tell your children about how you stood up for what you believed was right, even when the majority of people wanted to torture enemy captives.
Rational Human posted at 8:33 pm on Sun, May 20, 2012.
Sockrat, when are you people going to try to see what torture is? If waterboarding is torture, what other tortures would you compare it to and why? What would you say is the most extreme method of questioning that you don't consider torture and why? My guess is you and people like you haven't really considered what waterboarding really is compared with other interrogation methods. Or should we just ask them questions politely or not at all?
mrconservative posted at 9:32 pm on Sun, May 20, 2012.
Hayden is right. Me, I'd use water boarding, but only as a last resort. We'd have to rough 'em up a bit, but the truth is, if there was a better way, I'd do that instead. I've yet to see any comments from a liberal saying what other non-torturous method would work "better" than water boarding.
JMJ posted at 9:35 pm on Sun, May 20, 2012.
Hayden, not enough thought went into your letter, sad to say. If your purpose is to attain Eagle Scout, then you are giving short shrift to your argument.
And, hate to tell you Leon = Loon, the service academies sift out vigilante types. Rambo is just a movie.
Hayden, you're probably a nice kid. Don't embarrass yourself with a six sentence rationale for being "all for" waterboarding. You're correct: The enemy does way more atrocious acts on our soldiers, sailors and Marines. That doesn't justifyour use of torture simply for the sake of torture. It isn't that simple.
sockratties posted at 12:08 am on Mon, May 21, 2012.
Rat – the argument about if water boarding is torture or not is just a distraction. I consider it to be cruel and unusual punishment. Since the 8th amendment protects us against such things it makes sense to use that as a standard for our own actions. If “you and others like you” wish to slip below that level that’s up to you. Your judging of people with whom you don’t agree indicates a churlish nature that would be compliant with any interrogation methods you could get away with.
Slabside posted at 12:12 am on Mon, May 21, 2012.
Have any of you noticed that Dale Whiting and Cerulean are not posting? Dare I say it....?
Leon Ceniceros posted at 8:50 am on Mon, May 21, 2012.
Wow, who lifted the garbage can lid on the Libs. Naturally, none of the Libs has the guts to put their real name on their comments. Well, Folks, what else would you expect from people who hold the view that a Taliban or Al-Queda terrorist's life is worth one American Citizen's life. Like their "bowing and scraping" President, (to the son of Hirohito, the Japanese War Criminal who gave the "tora, tora, tora" go-ahead for the Pearl Harbor Attack and to the King of Saudi Arabia of all people....lol) these Liberal/Progressive/Democrats have put the "rights of foreign killers" ahead of the Right to Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness of American Citizens. If these Liberals/Progressives and Democrats love the Taliban and Al-Queda so much then why don't they move to Yemen, move to Afghanistan, move to Pakistan, move to Somalia, move to Ethiopia, move to Chad or the Sudan. The answer is because that would take........."guts"...and these Liberal/Progressive/Democrat commenters don't even have the "guts" to put their name on their comments.
sockratties posted at 9:14 am on Mon, May 21, 2012.
Hayden – Be sure to stay in school, study hard and learn, most of all about how to put information into a useable format and how to sift the wheat from the chaff. And learn how to focus and define your goals. Learn from the negative as well as the positive.
A good negative example are the comments from leon… Off topic, has no idea what your letter was about, missed your point entirely, made exaggerated assumptions about you and other commenters, labels all who comment, and tries to belittle those with which he disagrees. leon has given you a wonderful example of what to avoid becoming. Imagine living under such a cloud of angst. Pity him and after evaluation, discard such detritus.
Leon Ceniceros posted at 12:16 pm on Mon, May 21, 2012.
Hayden....perfect example of a........Liberal/Progressive/Democrat...who doesn't have the "guts" to put his name on his comments.
Seem to recall an old Army phrase......."gut-less wonder"......hmmmmmmm...now why did I remember that ........[wink]
VofReason posted at 12:32 pm on Mon, May 21, 2012.
Yup, a 15 year old knows that giving a terrorist a bath to save his family, city, state country is no decision at all. Sad how some of these older commenters never learned such a simple logical conclusion. Wonder how many of the Greatest Generation that fought in WWI or WWII sat around musing as to whether they should rough up an enemy to save some lives. Likely not many.
mrconservative posted at 12:33 pm on Mon, May 21, 2012.
Hayden, I agree with your letter, but since when is it a requirement to write a letter to your paper? I’m an Eagle Scout, and I never did that. I guess the requirements changed. . . .
What merit badge requires you to write a letter to the local newspaper, I wonder? I guess it's not one I earned, unless, like I said, the requirements changed since I earned it.
sockratties posted at 1:20 pm on Mon, May 21, 2012.
Let’s see now, the commenters are; truth, hadenough, Rational Human, sockratties, mrconservative, JMJ, Slabside, VofReason, and yourself. Using a handle is an option one may choose for many reasons. Looks like you’re playing in the wrong sandbox. Don’t try to start a war of wits, leon, you’re unarmed!
chuckles3 posted at 4:13 pm on Mon, May 21, 2012.
I wonder how many commenters here know anything about Scouting. Looks like one.
Rational Human posted at 5:27 pm on Mon, May 21, 2012.
Sockrat has decided not to answer the pertinent questions I posed for him and instead chose to further muddy the definition with cruel and unusual punishment. Bravo! Well done! I believe you have a future in politics. Any other namby pamby liberals out there want to try? Here's the questions: If waterboarding is torture, what other tortures would you compare it to and why? What would you say is the most extreme method of questioning that you don't consider torture and why? Sockrat seems to be saying that any form of questioning that is not allowed to be used on American citizens protected by the US Constitution, should be used on a people who would think nothing of cutting off his head and murdering his entire family in the name of Allah.
Rich posted at 6:48 pm on Mon, May 21, 2012.
Young man, throughout history we have have always found justification to do almost anything, most of it wrong. We seem to find little justification to turn the other cheek. And yet, by the example of history, it is the most powerful response. No dictator can exist, except with those who follow his dictates. If you force someone to do something, even mow his lawn, or leash his dog, you are the one in the wrong. We don't exist to 'follow' each of us is a wonderful unique thing. We have never been before and never will be again. We have limited time to be ourselves, and someone 'waterboarding' you, or any one, should not be in the equation.
Grant Hubbard posted at 6:57 pm on Mon, May 21, 2012.
I respect Haydon's opinion. but his opinion is more a reflection of the opinions of others than an opinion based on experience, study and serious reflection. Sadly, society has failed Haydon. All civilized nations, and all decent civilized citizens recognize that every human being is entitled to be treated humanely. That is a fundamental of all moral and civilized conduct. When we justify inhumane treatment just because someone else acts in an an uncivilized manner, we become uncivilized. Sadly, there are many, like Leon, who live on the edge of moral decency, or below it, and seek to bring others into the gutter in which they grovel. Haydon, lift your vision. Be a force for good. Remember, a scout is kind. Do your duty to God. Keep yourself morally straight. That is what an Eagle Scout should be! Reject the Leons and Russell Pearces who live lives of hate, who preach hate under the false flag of patriotism.
Rational Human posted at 7:14 pm on Mon, May 21, 2012.
Rich, I wish I lived in your fairy tale. Unfortunately, I have to live in the real world where people who worship a chink of meteorite hate me so much they think that if they die trying to cut my head off they will go someplace really really nice and have 72 virgins to spend eternity with. Hey, you both kinda share some sort of fairy tale existence. Nice company dude.
Rational Human posted at 7:21 pm on Mon, May 21, 2012.
Grant Hubbard, your strength will destroy America. They prey on you for it. Be the sacrificial lamb. Roll over and turn your cheek and bow your head so they can chop it off. Your God will soon be eliminated by people who's God wears a sword. You reject the Leons and Russell Pearces who you say live lives of hate and who preach hate under the false flag of patriotism, but you just confuse their willingness to fight back against our enemies as hate. Love everyone doesn't mean roll over and let them slice your belly open. God Does want you to defend yourself.
Rich posted at 9:18 pm on Mon, May 21, 2012.
"Rich, I wish I lived in your fairy tale."
Actually, I come closer to wishing I lived in yours. No one hates you, they don't even know you, and worse yet, could care less. You destroyed your country, and the world's economy reacting to a dozen nutballs because you believe this fairy tale. Most people are common, decent and could care less and the most powerful way to stop any idea is to disbelieve it. We've spent a few 'civilized' millennia trying to force people into our molds, our ideas, and they always have their own, and if you do sell it to someone, they put their children in fancy dress and send them halfway around the world to kill someone else's children. I really wish force worked, everything would be so much simpler then.
TeaPartyPatriot posted at 9:30 am on Tue, May 22, 2012.
Rich, I'm sorry. I forgot that America was responsible for 9/11 and all the other acts of terrorism committed on Americans throughout the world. Yes, you do live in a different state than we do called delusional.
In_God_We_Trust posted at 1:22 pm on Tue, May 22, 2012.
Are you an American Rich? I know you have suggested that you were a Jew before. Would you say that Israel's use of force to acquire and keep lands they have no right to hasn't been very effective? The only problem that I can see is that not enough force was used.
Rich posted at 7:01 pm on Tue, May 22, 2012.
IGWT,
My wife and children are Jewish. I am a WASP, Boston then Providence, Four Senators, from one of the first, never a President, directly, two Vice Presidents, ancestors signed both the Declaration and the Constitution. My children live in Tokyo, London and Ohio. What do you consider an American? It was a good idea until the worst of us figured ways around it and think force is a way to regulate your dog. As I've grown older I've watched the system devolve from personal freedom, and without that and the responsibility it entails, it doesn't work anymore. As Plato observed, it starts as anarchy, then tyranny, then monarchy and then democracy that devolves into anarchy again. So American? I guess I still believe we can pull it out, but I get two of three children out of harm's way. Force has never worked in the long run. Who's got a palace in Rome? The Pope or the Caesars?
Rational Human posted at 7:48 pm on Tue, May 22, 2012.
Well Rich, extreme force saved the world from tyranny and protected freedom several times just in our American experience. Lay down your arms for a second and the dogs of the world will eat you alive. Empires rise and fall and only force created and maintained them. It wasn't Roman force that led to it's fall. It was their lack of the ability to use force against their enemies that was their doom. And let's not succumb to stupidity trying to argue that anything survives forever. Nothing works forever. So are you like an old hippy saying we should give love a try? lol. Unilateral disarm to show the world we are a peace loving nation? How long do you think we would last with that policy? And what is this nonsense about me being what destroyed this country? We aren't destroyed. We enjoy a very high living standard and are very happy. I think you should move your entire family to some other country for your protection so that you all don't have to suffer the indignity of the American style.
Rich posted at 9:39 pm on Tue, May 22, 2012.
RH, it's an anarchy where they make laws about your dog and your car seats while carrying a cute little pink gun with a laser sight. And no, I wasn't a hippy, I was a Naval Officer. It's just rather obvious it's coming apart at the seams. Government has so much power that it has lost the facility to govern and covers up by maxing out all our credit cards. Yes, at a certain point government is governed by the law of diminishing returns until it is an anarchy. In other words too much power is too little. Once they started violating the Bill of Rights to expand their power, they broke the system. Maybe we have the will left to change that, but that is currently a bit doubtful.
sockratties posted at 1:26 am on Wed, May 23, 2012.
Rat -- Rome was destroyed from within by greed, corruption and apathy. Rome tried to control the known world by force for the benefit of a few who influenced the government. She was eventually overrun by less sophisticated enemies that used her dependence on plunder and overextended military power against her. Sound familiar?
“None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free.” – Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
Rational Human posted at 9:14 pm on Wed, May 23, 2012.
First of all Sockrat, Rome was always greedy and corrupt, as is everyone else. Greed is the one thing all people share. They may have become apathetic as well, but the reason Rome fell was their inability to fund the large armies, AKA force, that were initially funded by the spoils of war that were coming in during their expansion. Once their was no more land to conquer coupled with their empire being stretched to the limits of it's ability to rule over, they began to crumble. Without the large armies, AKA force, their enemies were able to start to nibble at the edges until their once mighty city was sacked once and for all. It has been the same with all great empires and will probably happen to America as well. Everything runs in cycles. You can't fight it off forever. The only thing that will keep us strong is our strength. Force is the only thing that will keep our enemies at bay. Without it we will fall as Rome did too. Rome didn't try to control the known world by force for the benefit of a few who influenced the government. They did control the world by force for nearly a 1,000 years fool. The western part of the Roman Empire continued for almost 1000 years, and the eastern part, including Greece and Turkey, continued for about a thousand years more. The eastern part was called the Byzantine Empire with a capital at Constantinople. Remember this, when the pumps run dry your standard of living will drop down to nothing. The only thing keeping those pumps pumping for us is the force of arms. You should get down on your knees and kiss the rear end of every soldier that fights to keep you free and prosperous. If you don't like it and prefer socialism to what we have now you are free to move somewhere that already has a poor standard of living and stop trying to import poverty for the sake of your mistaken sense of morality.
sockratties posted at 7:03 am on Thu, May 24, 2012.
Rat – if you had your way you would be the only one that lives here… kicking and screaming and calling names. Try not to be so childish. Not everyone is going to agree with you although I see you did agree with my last post (even though you still had to call me a fool). You think you’re an Einstein using statements like “The only thing that will keep us strong is our strength?” That’s like saying the only thing that will keep us rich is our wealth. Well duh! And I am a vet who did my time so get on your knees and start kissing.
Rational Human posted at 11:35 am on Thu, May 24, 2012.
Right, force is what is our strength and not being willing to use it is what will destroy us. My father died flying a bomber over Europe and I spent two tours of duty in Vietnam. My entire family history of military dedication starts at the American Revolution. Thank you for serving Rat. I totally disagree with your Rome was destroyed from within by greed, corruption and apathy. Greed is what fueled every great empire, fool. You are a fool and will always be a fool, fool.
cacrobert posted at 11:42 pm on Sat, May 26, 2012.
To this kid, I say that water boarding is torture and the ends do not justify the means. Furthermore, to Leon Cisneros is a Tio Tomas (Uncle Tom) and a traitor to his people so dont listen to this Benedict Arnold.
Rational Human posted at 8:41 am on Sun, May 27, 2012.
If waterboarding is torture, what other tortures would you compare it to and why? What would you say is the most extreme method of questioning that you don't consider torture and why? Enhanced interrogation of terrorists has been very effective in saving lives. Can an interrogation method that doesn't leave any permanent injury of any kind and makes a blood thirsty terrorist give up info that saves a few innocent lives be considered justified? Any sane man would say yes. Which is even one more reason to consider liberalism to be a form of insanity.