Survey: Perceptions of Mormons mostly unchanged
Mitt Romney
FILE - In this Thursday Dec. 22, 2011 file photo, Republican presidential candidate, former Mass. Gov. Mitt Romney, visits St. Paul's Lutheran Church while campaigning in a Berlin, N.H. neighborhood. How unthinkable it was, not so long ago, that a presidential election would pit a candidate fathered by an African against another condemned as un-Christian. And yet, here it is: Barack Obama vs. Mitt Romney, an African-American and a white Mormon, representatives of two groups and that have endured oppression to carve out a place in the United States. How much progress has America made against bigotry? (AP Photo/Charles Krupa)
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SculptorDad posted at 7:10 am on Fri, Dec 21, 2012.
Ahem, they are ALL "cults"; and the "opium of the people", according to Karl Marx...You can have it, and I pity you.
WeAreSoDoomed posted at 8:02 am on Thu, Dec 20, 2012.
I'd have to agree with many of the comment here about the prejudice of Mormons against non-Mormons. Seen it, Felt it, hurt by it.
However, I've seen the same thing with Texans as well. And they're much nastier about it !
az2008 posted at 9:16 pm on Tue, Dec 18, 2012.
Roubidoux said: "I can find just as many rude and insolent "Christians" as you can find rude and insolent Mormons."
My point wasn't that there are rude Mormons, but that their rudeness is directed at beliefs which are fundamental throughout Judeo and Christian history. This shows how deceptive (IMO) it is for Mormons to employ Christian terms which are so highly redefined. Or, how wrong they are to believe they should be considered just another Christian denomination.
It's common to hear Mormons ridicule the Judeo-Christian belief that God is eternal. "Who created him? He created himself? Lol!"
What Mormons fail to realize is that the same could be said for their belief that God is an "exalted man," brought into being by a previously exalted man, (who himself was brought into being by yet a another previously exalted man.). Who brought into being the first exalted man? It's like an endless stack of turtles.
Or, if God cannot create matter, but matter is eternal, unlike God (who is merely "organized matter," organized by a previous being elevated to Godhood), where did the matter come from?
That's what always bugged me about Mormonism. They would poke fun at traditional Christian views which were fundamental and essential to the nature of God (the vast gulf between his nature and ours). But then expected to be seen as "Christian." Or, they thought Christian beliefs were nonsensical, without realizing how nonsensical their own beliefs are.
az2008 posted at 9:03 pm on Tue, Dec 18, 2012.
(continued to Roubidoux) LDS Apostle McConkie taught that every reference to Jehovah in the bible refers to Jesus. Every reference to Elohim refers to God. Jehovah is traditionally known as the personal name of God, represented in bibles as uppercase LORD. Elohim is known as God's title, represented in bibles as uppercase GOD. (Adonai is another title translated as lowercase Lord). This view becomes nonsensical in some places ("The Lord [Jehovah] our God [Elohim] is one Lord [Jehovah]").
Even Joseph F. Smith taught that (Gospel Doctrine, P. 70).
Mormon beliefs lead to explanations like this. For example, the belief that Mary conceived the "normal, natural way." When you believe God is constrained by a body of flesh and bone, it consequently leads to him "doing it" (as we know it) with Mary rather than conceiving spiritually.
az2008 posted at 9:03 pm on Tue, Dec 18, 2012.
Roubidoux, There's been a lot of "ideas" taught by highly influential leaders of the church, regarded as doctrine by members, which were later distanced by the church.
Brigham Young taught that Adam is God. (That the Garden of Eden story is the story of God's progression from spirit, to mortal and sinful man, in this case Adam, to God, in this case the one we humans worship.).
(continued due to this site's uninformative sp@m error)
tededitedit posted at 8:08 pm on Tue, Dec 18, 2012.
RubidouxFalcon, where did you get the idea the Cross "celebrates" our Savior's death? It symbolizes our Savior's SACRIFICE! That HE would give HIS life for us!! WOW!!! He was not just a guy, the son of another guy, as he is to you. Your prophet and president at the time, Spencer Kimball, said at the "partial" open house after the Mesa Temple remodel that there were no crosses because Christ's death wasn't the symbol to dwell on. He said that LDS people were the living symbols of the Mormon church. Sorry, a church solely consisting of people is not Christian. Sorry, a church with so many secrets, so many levels, is not Christian.
Bingo6 posted at 6:13 pm on Tue, Dec 18, 2012.
All religions are cults, the Mormons may be weird but at least the don't have the history of blood, torture, bigotry and the deaths of millions of innocents on their hands like Christianity does, but give them a few millennia they'll catch up.
section 8 posted at 6:10 pm on Tue, Dec 18, 2012.
How do you keep a Mormon from drinking all your beer on a fishing trip?
Invite a second Mormon
downtownresident posted at 5:26 pm on Tue, Dec 18, 2012.
RubidouxFalcon,
You might as well have been speaking in tongues when trying to explain the outrageous beliefs your cult has.
Who pays for the lights at the temple?
RubidouxFalcon posted at 4:22 pm on Tue, Dec 18, 2012.
I think one problem here is understanding what the actual, perpetuated doctrine of the Church is verses what may be a one time theory of an Apostle or Elder, usually some time ago, that was in fact recorded, but never really perpetuated throughout the church. I think the Church could improve upon distinguishing between theories that aren't embraced, but aren't debunked either, that our critics attach themselves to.
It's also important to understand that you could hear something from a pulpit in the Mormon church that is in fact, not doctrine at all, because we don't have a representative teacher every Sunday, such a named Preacher or something to that effect. We give members the opportunity to prepare a talk (or sermon, if you will) on an assigned topic and then that talk is given without any editing or discussion with leadership. It provides great growth to the members, but can confuse investigators if the are in fact errors in the message. Testimony meeting is a time for folks to say what they believe to be true and they can say it, even if it isn't technically the true doctrine of the church.
The origin and nature of God, in the LDS Church, to be sure is different from the more traditional Christian version. I'm not agreeing with all of az2008's claims, but there is basic difference in the LDS identification of deity vs more traditional Christianity. We do believe that God the Father and Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost are three separate and distinct entities. We do believe that God the Father has a perfected body of flesh and bone, much like the risen Savior does, but unlike the Holy Ghost, who is in fact a spirit personage.
No doubt this is unlike the traditional Christian view of the Trinity, where they are all in one and are basically a deified cloud, except without the substance.
That God was once like man and progressed to become God is part of LDS Doctrine. But it's important to know that we have very little further doctrine on the issue other than a few of the original statements from the early days of the Church. The Prophet could have simply meant that God had a beginning, like man, and now has no end and that man, had a beginning, and can, like God, have no end. Christians have a problem with God having a beginning, but beyond that, the traditional Christian view is similar to the LDS view. Through Christ's sacrifice, we can be eternal beings.
A good discussion on it is found at this link:
http://eom.byu.edu/index.php/God_the_Father
The Bible Dictionary the LDS use gives this brief explanation:
http://www.lds.org/scriptures/bd/god?lang=eng
I would also dispute the framing of the argument as "Mormons ridicule xyz Christian concept". I can find just as many rude and insolent "Christians" as you can find rude and insolent Mormons. But it is clear to me from the teachings of my church to do my best to ridicule no one. It's obvious not what Christ would want, but just from a growth perspective, that's clearly not the way to win friends and influence people. There is no teaching in our church that encourages us to ridicule anyone.
Of course, there is so much more to say, but this forum is so limited.
Merry Christmas to all
az2008 posted at 2:25 pm on Tue, Dec 18, 2012.
(conintued to Downtown) In the '60s or '70s a document in the church's vault was accidentally leaked. It was called Joseph Smith's Alphabet and Grammar. In it, Smith had related the text of the BoA to individual hieroglyphics, often relating entire paragraphs of English words to a single hieroglyphic with a narrow, succinct meaning (like "sea"). The church's position: "we don't know what Joseph was doing because we don't have the original papyrus. These could be nothing more than doodles."
Well, a few years later the original papyrus was discovered. The glyphs matched exactly the order in which Joseph wrote them in his "Alphabet and Grammar." It's obvious he believed he was literally translating. (The church changed its position to be that Joseph may have just received "divine inspiration" from the papyrus even though he believed he was translating it.).
Smith even included a drawing from the papyrus, identifying a figure as "God sitting upon his throne." In Egyptian believe, that figure is the god Min with an erection. Min was famous for his sexual exploits, including having his mother.
az2008 posted at 2:23 pm on Tue, Dec 18, 2012.
Downtown, regarding "dreamed up:" Consider the Book of Abraham. Joseph claimed to translate Egyptian when nobody could dispute him. After the discovery of the Rosetta stone many decades later, critics claimed Joseph couldn't possibly have translated the BoA from the papyrus he had. The church had the convenient position that the papyrus had been lost, believed to have been burned in the Chicago fire.
(continued due to this site's uninformative sp@m error.)
downtownresident posted at 1:32 pm on Tue, Dec 18, 2012.
RubidouxFalcon,
What specifics did you cite to normalize the incredible Mormon concept of afterlife? The origin, justification, normalization and rationalization of these "latter day saints", dreamed up by the cult founder.
Then there's the billions of dollars worth of gold, priceless artworks and real estate holdings that the cult has accumulated, in the name of WHAT?
And what's with that strange underwear you all wear?
Oh, and then there's those "temples" that are off limits to everyone, but the chosen few.
The list is too long for this column. Mormonism was a cult, is a cult, will alwys be a cult. You can call it whatever you want.
az2008 posted at 1:28 pm on Tue, Dec 18, 2012.
Falcon, my primary concern (or complaint) about Mormonism isn't that it's "bad" but that it isn't transparent. Advocates go door to door using Christian terms about Father, Son, Trinity, Salvation. They depict Mormonism as "Restored" Christianity. But, they don't want to get into details about how they believe the Father was once a man who lived on another planet, worshipped his own Father God and earned his place as a God who could populate his own world. (I.e., that there was a time when God wasn't God. That Man can become what God is.).
I was at a fasting and testimony meeting once. A speaker mentioned the above (and how God has a body of flesh and bone, isn't omnipresent, etc.). A prospective convert was near me. She began to have a negative reaction to what she heard. Her missionary hosts closed in on her, explaining that it's not really that way, that it's complicated, not to worry about it, it's nothing, she'd understand later.
Mormons ridicule Christians for believing God is eternal. Mormons believe *matter* is eternal, and that God is only eternal in the sense that the *matter* he was *organized* from (by a God who had progressed further) is eternal. Or, they ridicule Christians for believing God is omnipresent. Or, omnipotent (Mormons don't believe God has the power to create matter from nothing. Only to organize matter which is the only eternal thing that exists.).
That's what bugs me. Mormons don't want these things talked about. They convert people in small steps which would be impeded if the full picture were understood from the onset.
IMO, that's what makes Mormonism a cult. (And, not Christian due to the concept of God being an "exalted man" within the "eternal progression" of an infinite number of exalted men who earned their salvation, working their way to being worshiped.). In my view, the Bible says "God created man in his own image" and Mormons returned the favor (creating God in man's image).
az2008 posted at 1:10 pm on Tue, Dec 18, 2012.
OldGuy, I've seen that too. I worked with a Mormon who would incite gossip and backstabbing. He would have moments of rage when under stress, blaming everyone around him. But, when his Mormon friends were present, he'd act like the perfect saint.
I have a lot of respect for Mormons generally because they do emphasize good values due to their emphasis on salvation through works. Something is substantially different about that compared to many Christians who believe you're saved by faith, and give little thought to their works.
But, I also think this leads to huge egos. Most Mormons I've known were very full of themselves. Partly due to the belief that they can become God and be worshiped by their own creation the same way God is worshiped by his creation (us). That and their sense that they earn their salvation (rather than unworthy recipients, which the "saved by grace" folks tend to emphasize) seems to produce a very recognizable *pattern* of smuggness. An overcompensation.
RubidouxFalcon posted at 12:13 pm on Tue, Dec 18, 2012.
Oh, and I don't doubt Obama's birth certificate. And I'm a Mormon. I doubt his vision for America is what it takes to get America to be a leader in the world again. I didn't get that at church, I got it from reading and listening to his own words and measuring that against what I believe to be other quality political positions and philosophies.
I rarely hear about politics at church and I rarely talk about it myself. You really should come sometime. It's not really as exciting as some folks make it out to be. There's no dogmatic brainwashing going on.
This Sunday, there were a couple of talks on, well Christmas and making the season more meaningful by serving others (oh, the horror!).
Then I helped out in my son's primary class. We talked about giving gifts and what would be a good gift to give others would be. After we got through the trains and a bow and arrow, the kids came up with being nice to their siblings. It was a really cult-like experience (not).
We came home and had lunch and then hung out as family, doing cultish things like playing board games and I committed a grievous sin by watching a football game.
Folks, we're not as exciting as you want us to be. But we're happy and look forward to living together forever as a family with our Heavenly Father. It brings us hope and purpose in our lives.
Check out www.lds.org or www.mormon.org if you want to really learn more. Ok if you don't though.
RubidouxFalcon posted at 12:04 pm on Tue, Dec 18, 2012.
MESA TEACHER: Yes it's true we don't have crosses on or in our buildings. The cross was a method of execution back then. We don't celebrate Jesus' death, but his life and resurrection.
OLD GUY: While I haven't lived your life or your experiences, I have to say that you must have been "stabbed in the back" in your lifetime by someone other than a Mormon. Care to share what religion they were? And even if you are a very social and active person, you maybe have done business with or interacted personally with, what, 20 Mormons? 50? There must be thousands of us here in the East Valley. Certainly you won't judge us all on a few select bad experiences, will you?
DOWNTOWN RESIDENT: Your post is really confusing. Do you have one specific thing that you'd like to discuss? Or is your intent to just speak in generalities because the pamphlet your pastor gave you was in the other room and you were too lazy to go get it and so all you remembered was Mormons=bad. So you posted something rude and mean, but really couldn't articulate anything that was based in fact?
That's ok. You are still invited to see the Mesa Temple Lights.
downtownresident posted at 10:44 am on Tue, Dec 18, 2012.
OOPS.
Well duh[sad].
That's because Mormons, and the "church", have not changed!!!
The pre-election propaganda didn't do anything to change the hearts of Mormons, nor their attitude toward non-Mormons.
Their ideas about their "religion" and their rewards in the afterlife are so bizaar as to be outrageous and do not align with basic Christian beliefs.
And about those "latter day saints". Why are they exclusive only to Mormons. Are they the chosen cult? And, we know who they really worship, and it isn't "God".
downtownresident posted at 10:34 am on Tue, Dec 18, 2012.
Well duh![sad]
OldGuy61 posted at 10:19 am on Tue, Dec 18, 2012.
I live in the East Valley area just outside Phoenix. It is a major Mormon enclave here in Arizona. I can tell you that the Mormons give you a smile while stabbing you in the back if you are not also a Mormon. They take care of their own while walking on everyone else. Most are well off and want to stay that way. That is why they all like the Republican Party. I am waiting to see what is going to happen here in Arizona. They are losing their political majority. Soon this state may well go Democratic. The Mormons will call it Armageddon. They're still doubting Obama's birth certificate (It was just in an article again today). Cult--YES!! Religion--Only if you seek more money and more political clout.
mesateacher posted at 8:50 am on Tue, Dec 18, 2012.
Boy, is that photo with the article misleading! LDS churches NEVER have a cross on them; they use simple spires. I can't even recall ever seeing a cross or crucifix in any LDS ward or stake building. Never.