Attendees enjoy refreshments in the cultural hall at the Chandler Arizona East Stake August 26, following a fireside discussion about the Constitution.
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Let's not go overboard on all of this hipe!
One can defend the Constitution and still advocate for it's being updated. Laws, including Constitutional Laws, do need to evolve as society evolves.
We Mormons are taught that the ideal form of government is a monarchy! Yes, that is correct, a monarchy, but one lead by "righteous leaders." Democracy works because usually the will of the people is correct, usually, but not always. And with monarchies as well as with democracies, power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely! [In both political parties, not just one.]
And we are taught that law must not compel our behavior, but must still allow us to chose, wisely or not wisely. Our particular societal group, a church for example, can compel compliance with its rules of behavior. But society in general must allow for freedom of individual choice. There was a time when we choose to follow the path of individual choice, avoiding compulsion in all that we might do. And we rejected compulsion in favor of individual choice.
In these "the last days," the US Constitution has been the beginning of governmental reform spreading across the world. Magna Carta preceeded it. But 1776 and 1790 were big steps. Yet, we Momons are taught to respect whatever form of government is in control where ever we live. That is why we were able to build a Temple in East Germany before we were able to build one in West Germany. We respected both the East and West German governments. But the East Germans were more impressed.
Now, let's not go overboard on this idea of defending the US Constitution. Like all other works of man, it is imperfect and from time to time it needs revision.
Cheap talk about defending something often gives rise to the creation of "boogy men" and when so, becomes a tool of repression used by those who champion one view over another. What we do need to press for now is "participation in government" so that the will of the people is heard and reflected. Now we see movements to restrict voting rights and make it harder to vote, not because voter fraud is a huge problem. Rather it appears that one party is using it as a boogy man to prevent wider spread voter participation. Is that right? Can't be!
But there will come a time when the world will be rulled by a Monarchy. We Mormons call that time the Millenium which is associated with the Second Coming.
So let's get out the vote, not for just the few who we think think like us [we must be right, right!] but for all. If minorities support a liberal point of view, then so be it. They must vote, their voice must be heard. Surely to suppress it is a sin.
"“There is no such thing as Constitutional rights,” he said. “It’s a misnomer. Rights come from God.”
That doesn't sound like someone who wants to defend our Constitution...in fact, it doesn't sound like someone who has ever READ our Constitution.
Our rights come from the governed, not from any supernatural source. There is absolutely NO mention of any gods, Jesus, or the Bible in the Constitution. That was done ON PURPOSE.
Uphold and defend the United States Constitution should be every single American's duty.
Let's speak of......"DUTY". There is a duty to serve on juries.There is also a "DUTY" to serve in the Military of the United States when Congress and the President activates the Selective Service System....the ...."DRAFT".
Up until the Vietnam War, there wasn't a special ..."ARRANGEMENT"...to deferr a percentage of Draft Eligible Mormon young men as ..."MINISTERS OF GOD".
This special ...."ARRANGEMENT" between the Mormon Church and the Selective Service System allowed.......90% of young Mormon Draft-Eligible men to be deferred from Active Duty. Their...."SLOTS"...were filled by...."GENTILE" young men who were Protestant, Catholic, Jewish, Orthodox, Muslim or Atheists. These .."SUBSTITUTES"...went on to fight and possibley die or be wounded in the place of the "DEFERRED" young Mormon men. Instead of a Triangular Folded Flag on the mantlepiece of a Mormon home there is one on the mantlepiece of a "GENTILE" home.
TO "UPHOLD AND DEFEND THE CONSTITUTION" ARE NOT JUST HOLLOW WORDS. THERE IS ALSO THE DUTY OF EVERY YOUNG MORMON MAN TO SERVE HIS COUNTY IN THE EXACT SAME MANNER OF EVERY YOUNG GENTILE MAN.
ANYONE CAN CROUCH DOWN IN A FOXHOLE........IF ANYONE CAN THEN "EVERYONE" SHOULD.
Leon, thank you for admitting that atheists have fought and died for this country.
I did not realize that Mormons had been given this "special" treatment, but it does not surprise me.
And for those who will scream "there are no atheists in foxholes", allow me to correct that phrase. The correct version is "there are no chaplains in foxholes".
Leon, tell that to my Mormon father and uncle, both drafted into the US Army for Vietnam. Our President is a WWII vet. According to statistics 1.5% of the US Army alone (this doesn't include the Marines, Navy or Air Force) is Mormon. The US Mormon population is only 1.9%. If you include other branches of the military, Mormons are more than represented in the armed serves. So clearly your rants about Mormons ignoring their military duties are unobstructed by "facts."
As far as deferment, yes, Mormon missions qualified, but so did other religious deferments that were not Mormon related.
What a crock. Mormons embrace the constitution, when it suits their purpose.Mormonism is nothing but a cult. It has always been a cult, it will always be a cult!!!
A mis-guided cult, at that!
"By far, the most popular divine reference in a preamble is "Almighty God." This appears in the preamble of 30 state constitutions. In some states, the state constitution does not have a preamble. However, a divine reference can be found in the religion clauses in the bill of rights in each instance. There is only one state constitution which has a preamble that does not have a divine reference of any kind. This is the Constitution of Oregon." Hmmm, only one state constitution does not have a reference to God in it. Maybe that is where the confused people who do not believe in God should all live?
Mormons would be Far Better Served to try and remember what it means to be a "Saint"?
Millions of Good Hard Working Hispanic Human Beings are being Persecuted, largely by so called "Saints".
Parents are being ripped from their legal Citizen Children, and Families!
Over Forty-two Thousand Hispanic Human Beings now lay dead in the Harshj Desert at the U.S. Mexico Border where I.C.E. has Deported/Dumped Hundreds of Thousands into a known "Drug War" with nothing, not even water to be killed, or to Die of the Elements.
Over Thirteen Thousand Hispanic Immigrants have been held in Detention for years with out even charges.
Over Five Thousand Hispanic Citizen Children are now in Foster Care.
Over One Hundred Hispanic Immigrants have Died in Detention.
This is America's Darkest Hour.
Hitler would be very proud.
Stand by and watch "Ye Saints".
"America is great because it is good, when it ceases to be good, it ceases to be great."Alex De Tocqueville
Many so called "Saints" like Russell Pearce have ceased any resemblance of good!
You will be judged for your Actions, or lack thereof, by one who gave his life so that you may receive "Amnesty"
"Amnesty" is the Foundation of all Christianity.
Blessed are the merciful for they shall obtain mercy.
"Latter Day Saints"??
I'm glad to see all of the usual commenters are out in force.....
Downtown, time to up your medication... You'll feel better. The LDS Church isn't a cult. You repeating it four times doesn't make it so.
Leon, get a grip. Please come back to the land of reality. Plenty of Mormons were drafted in the Vietnam war... two in my own family, after their missions.
And Dale (shakes head) what to make of your ramblings.... You have an Arizona Mormon last name so I won't question that you are LDS, I just hope you aren't allowed anywhere near a pulpt or Sunday School class. The Church does not teach that the ideal form of government is a monarchy. If you are referring to the idea of Christ coming to reign on earth during the Millenium, that is a concept shared by most Christians... and to call that monarchical gov't is like calling an apple an orange.
David, please wipe the spittle from the corners of your mouth, it's kind of gross....
Gilbert Mormons, want to uphold the Constitution, Would be nice if they started with the Police, and the Justice system, why does Gilbert have more money then any other city?[sad]
I love it when VofReason sticks his lying foot into his own mouth!"This appears in the preamble of 30 state constitutions"Less than 6 weeks ago he claimed ALL FIFTY STATES had this. Oops!Busted again!
"Hmmm, only one state constitution does not have a reference to God "And ANOTHER lie! The term "Supreme Being" could apply to anything from your Abrahamic god to Zeus. And you know this. So please stop lying about it.
"Maybe that is where the confused people who do not believe in God should all live?"Actually, people who have discarded ignorant superstitious beliefs are less confused than those who cling to ignorant superstitious beliefs. Oops again!
Did you serve in the Military, in a war and in combat? And I dont mean just in a war zone- I mean actually engaging the enemy and being shot at.
I am LDS and I served in Iraq. Your assertion that Mormons will not and do not serve in the military is a stupid one at best.
I'm betting you never served cuz if you did you would know who the Mormons were and you would not have degraded the service of those who you fought side by side with if they served honorably.
Ok...what about the bil of rights??
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
508: You neglected to mention whether you volunteered or were drafted. I was in for the duration since I was a volunteer when there was a draft. I was serving when Mitts was arranging his deferments like all politically connected youth of wealth.
Picking on Leon is not going to really resolve anything but I do seem to recall that he did in fact serve.
My beef with Mormons and particularly Jeff Flake is that they firmly believe there is no separation of church and state. I actually have it in writing from Flake and that scares me about having a Mormon president if he believes the same thing.
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion"
And yet, one cannot walk into a grocery story on Sunday morning and buy beer.
Now, I do not drink alcohol, so this prohibition does not affect me...but this LAW is there solely because of RELIGIOUS pressure. And it's unconstitutional.
Will the Mormons defend the right to buy alcohol on a Sunday morning...or is their claim to uphold and defend the Consitution just another religious lie?
The funny part about all these comments, is all you people are so hung up on "God or Mormons" it doesn't matter our country is falling apart at the seams and all you people are doing is bickering over the simplest terminology. My personal favorite is the person commenting on how we have our rights due to who's elected, I can't wait for the person to tell you that your right to breath is no longer valid. For those of you who still haven't figured this out while flexing your EPEENs here's how the system works; The Declaration of independence>The Constitution>Bill of Rights>Laws, this is how it was set up this is how it should work. As it should be and what it was founded upon is the people are greater than the government. All things considered it is better to live on your feet than to die on your knees remember this.
Keep your dogma out of my kool aid and every thing will be okay.
Interesting that one could insist upon upholding the Constitution, while under the misbegotten belief of the "Divine Rights" of Kings...that is Monarchy, and predates the Magna Carta.
Funny how, when we have a Mormon running for President, all of a sudden we have a massive ad campaign for Mormons, and Mormons are suddenly all Republicans. Does this mean the the Mormons who are Democrats, have to pay 15% in tithes, now, instead of the usual 10%, and sit in the back of the congregation?
“Next to being one in worshiping God, there is nothing in this world upon which this Church should be more united than in upholding and defending the Constitution of the United States,” read a quote by LDS President David O. McKay on a display at the lecture."
Heresy. Pure heresy.
samkat- no was not drafted. I joined in the late 80's and just retired from the Army in 2010.
Of course picking on leon wont resolve anything. That is not my objective. He is neglecting to state that mormons also volunteered without drafted. I think if one looks across america one would find that there were people from all walks of life who avoided the draft.Many mormons are no different. I dont condone avoiding the draft, but ur talking to someone who joined up on my own. From my perspective, the draft is the worst thing we can do. It was bad enough having problem children to serve with in Iraq- cant imagine what having a sea of draftees who didnt want to be there was like. I imagine most did just fine, but for those with the attitiude it must have been just peachy for everyone else to deal with them.
As for your last statement about sep church and state...news to me. Thanks for telling me what I believe in. I was so into intertwining my religion with the way I led my Soldiers that I had them all wearing shirts and ties and handing out books of mormon.....and now thanks to you , I know why.
508: Thanks for your service. I retired in 1976 myself. I don't quite know what to make of your last statement unless you were heading up one of those Mormon brigades. :-)
You dont get the last part of my post? It was in response to your claim that mormons dont believe in sep between church/state. Heres what you said:
"My beef with Mormons and particularly Jeff Flake is that they firmly believe there is no separation of church and state. I actually have it in writing from Flake and that scares me about having a Mormon president if he believes the same thing."
I was responding to that statement.
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