It is getting personal in the Mormon Church.
Members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are showcasing themselves on the Internet and in TV commercials to dispel misconceptions and stereotypes about their faith and to try to show they’re a diverse group of people who are “as regular as anyone else,” in the words of one Mormon, Don Harkey of Ahwatukee Foothills.
The Valley is one of a dozen major markets where the Mormon Church this week is launching a national media campaign called “I’m A Mormon.” The project is anchored by the website Mormon.org, an attractively designed place featuring close-up sketches of members. They include wholesome, engaging video profiles of Mormons who have overcome daunting life challenges, but came out with their faith intact or strengthened.
Rather than hard-sell evangelism, the videos focus on members’ personal lives, before they end their remarks with the simple words, “and I am a Mormon.”
Area TV stations will begin running advertisements highlighting Mormons, while there will also be a dozen billboards in the Valley as well as ads in buses. The effort will continue for six months. Local church leaders were unable to say the cost of the advertising campaign.
Data shows there are 387,956 Mormons in Arizona, of which 190,000 reside in the Valley. Of the 801 wards, or congregations in the state, 490 are in the metro area.
“Research shows that despite our being the fourth largest Christian faith in the United States, many are not familiar with our faith, or they have received misinformation about it,” said Cindy Packard, Arizona spokeswoman for the church. “Rather than simply explaining our beliefs and practices, the redesigned website highlights people sharing their own stories in their own words.”
The key, she said, is an emphasis “not so much on what we believe but what we do because of what we believe.”
The “I’m a Mormon” campaign comes out of church research that found half of Americans had never met a Mormon, but when they had done so, “misconceptions about the church fell away,” according to campaign materials. After the Mormon.org site was redesigned in June 2010, church members were invited to write their profiles and share their testimonies worldwide with a few computer clicks.
Curtis Keller of Gilbert wrote his profile immediately and posted it, but says he should get back to updating it. “It is a great way to show people what we believe,” he said. “I think there is a common misconception about Mormons that they don’t believe in Jesus Christ” or that they, instead, worship their prophet and founder, Joseph Smith.
“I answered that: ‘Of course not. We revere Joseph Smith as a prophet, but we worship Jesus Christ as our savior, knowing that if we believe in Jesus Christ and accept him, we can be forgiven of our sins and receive redemption.’”
Keller, who is the bishop of the Fairview Ward in the Higley Stake, said members repeatedly are asked about polygamy, which the church officially ended in 1890.
“It’s out there that Mormons are ‘weird’ or ‘odd’ people,” Keller said. He noted that LDS members have long regarded themselves as “a peculiar people” because of a special covenant they believe they have with God. “Yes, it goes back a long ways that we will be a ‘peculiar people,’ and I think we are a ‘peculiar people’ in today’s standards in that we have pretty traditional moral standards. The world doesn’t have the same moral standards that we are used to.”
The campaign, he said, “helps people understand that Mormons are like your neighbors next door: They have tough times in their lives, and they have happy times” and hold down many kinds of jobs.
For Kara Kelly, the campaign will “clarify information” about her church. She said “people don’t know about us” and, too often, focus on things they hear “that have been taken out of context,” including the “crazier things in history” that may have been sensationalized. “But if you really know the real people, you get a better picture,” she said.
Kelly, who is a third-generation Mormon on her father’s side and at least three generations on her mother’s side, said the campaign smartly uses the latest technology to respond to misconceptions. “It is mostly taking advantage of where the world is going with technology.”
Miranda Culiver of Gilbert sees the campaign as an effective way “to illustrate that we are everyday people. We are school teachers, we are serving in our communities, we are neighbors and we are also Mormons.”
A convert to Mormonism when she was 19, Culiver, now 31, who works for the city of Mesa, teaches fourth-graders at her ward on Sunday mornings. She doesn’t regard the campaign as a defense of the church, but instead an opportunity to demonstrate one’s “faith and testimony in Jesus Christ, and anytime someone has a question or comment, it just presents us members with an opportunity to better explain who we are.”
East Valley Mormons say they believe the campaign, which had previously been test-marketed in nine cities, including Tucson, will help dispel stereotypes.
Mark Mendon, father of six, said his wife Michelle and their son Josh are the first in the family to write their profiles for Mormon.org. “Josh talked about himself, what he does, why he believes and why it makes a difference in his life,” Mendon said. “… The goal is to help people recognize who we are, and that we are normal people.”
Noting that Mormons are known for their “knocking on doors to share the Gospel of Jesus Christ,” the head of the denomination’s missionary department, David F. Evans, said, “Mormon.org gives people the opportunity to knock on our door through the Internet and ask members questions about our faith.”
The church currently has 52,000 full-time missionaries worldwide.
Harkey calls the campaign “an invitation,” in a non-threatening way, for non-members to hear Mormons from across the world tell about themselves. Harvey, who completed his own Mormon mission in Tennessee in 1976, has three sons who have been sent to Australia, Argentina and Connecticut for missions.
“The whole point of those missions was to teach people about Jesus Christ and his gospel and share his message throughout the world,” Harkey said.
He emphasized that the videos and profiles that members recorded or wrote have been left in their original form, not even modified for grammar or spelling. “The videos use no make-up or art direction,” he said.
Young Mormons especially have been sharing their stories and getting questions from their non-LDS peers.
“This is not surprising given the presence this has on YouTube, Twitter and Facebook,” Harkey said. “This gives young people a tremendous opportunity to communicate our message of Christ to their peers in their own personal way.”
So far, nearly a half-million people have been visiting Mormon.org monthly. Members locally and nationally dismiss suggestions that the church campaign coincides with the current U.S. presidential campaigns of Mitt Romney and Jon Huntsman, who are Mormons and former state governors.
“I don’t see that it is any way connected to Mitt Romney,” Keller said, noting the church had begun developing the campaign more than two years ago. “The church’s stance has always been to let politics take care of themselves.”
• Contact writer: (480) 898-6514
aaarrrggghhh posted at 3:24 pm on Sat, Oct 1, 2011.
You can teach people about Jesus without also believing in an extra "book" written by a guy who was killed by people he ticked off with his heresies. Nice way to dispel the "myth" of mormon overpopulation by showing a family with five kids - please quit breeding. Please. One of the worst things about Arizona politics is that the mormons in the legislature keep trying to use the legislative process to make everyone live the mormon lifestyle. Good luck with the propaganda campaign.
garyk5 posted at 3:51 pm on Sat, Oct 1, 2011.
I like some of the personal ideals these folks espouse, I like the people. The hard part is to see what their "church" tells them. If you take the Bible at face value, you can evaluate Joseph Smith and who he really was on the tests they say do there. False prophets, false teachers, teaching false christs. It says run from this.
patty deville posted at 4:47 pm on Sat, Oct 1, 2011.
There is nohing normal about LDS or their beliefs. Of course, their wacky reliigion isn't any stranger or more unbelievable than scientology or christianity.
az2008 posted at 5:01 pm on Sat, Oct 1, 2011.
Most mormons I know are very nice, with high ethics and family values. However, the fact is that the LDS religion teaches that God was once a sinful man who worshipped his own Father God (who was once a sinful man, and worshiped his own Father God, and so on...).
I don't mind the Mormon religion. What I detest is the way they redefine Christian terms without explaining that Judaism nor Christianity ever believed God was once a sinful mortal who had to earn his own salvation worshiping a more advanced being. That is *fundamentally* why Mormonism is not considered a "christian" religion. They *fundamentally* deny the nature of God as eternal, immutable, omnipresent, etc.
Basically, Mormons rewrote the verse from Genesis to say "God created man in his own image, and man returned the favor." If they're so proud of bringing God down to man's level, why not be open about it instead of dressing it up in Christian terms and pretending it's the "original, restored" Christianity?
Again, I love my Mormon friends. They are great people. But, stop trying to hide the fundamental difference of your religion. This is why people get the idea it's a "cult."
Zaphoid posted at 5:58 pm on Sat, Oct 1, 2011.
I detest people that push their religion upon me or try to redefine our society according to their rules. Many years on this planet have taught me that people who believe in fairy tales are not stable and not to be trusted. I am able to live a morally correct life without the aid and baggage of religion. I wish you would as well.
phxvato1202 posted at 6:05 pm on Sat, Oct 1, 2011.
well as i have previously commented the mormon faith is being destroyed because of politics in Mesa. The mormons may not realize that they eyes of the state are on this recall election and while no one can deny that but more importantly in many people's eyes the mormons are also being watched.
I know and understand that there are some great mormon people in this state that do abide by their faith based on biblical concepts. But what about those that don't and are in the public eye? Thus you have Russell Pearce someone whose character is totally in question and it seems that so many mormons are ardent supporters of his. So where do you draw the line in seeing what Mormonism is all about if you have representatives like Pearce, the Brocks, and all the clans that belong to these names? If Anita Christy is correct that this election is splitting the Mormons apart then how is anyone supposed to believe what any of them say.
Now no one needs to remind me that Mormons are human beings with faults because you don't need to be Mormon to know that. But when you have Pearce, Cortes? Westerm and so many proclaimed Mormons who are willing to engage in corruption to win an election says alot about the mormons. Whether you agree or not is up to you but there are many Mormons on all sides who will support one of the 3 candidates and to me 2 of them have no moral values yet the church that represents them does not come out and stop what looks like corruption.
I know the Mormons are rooted deep in racism because of personal experiences with some missionaries who came to my home and convinced me that there was and is much racism in the mormon faith. you can deny it all you want but it's there and is happening today and is alive and well in Arizona.
The mormons want to control the states citizens thru the legislature to live and abide by what they feel is morally right, not caring that many of those making the laws are the biggest bigots and racists in the state.
The mormon church will have to do much more than make a video to convince so many that they truly are whom they say they are because lately in the media it sure don't look like that.
Lilmiss posted at 7:00 pm on Sat, Oct 1, 2011.
The problem with Mormons calling themselves "as regular as anyone else" is that the cornerstone of the LDS faith is their belief that they can become Gods of their own planets when they die. That is also the reason they're not really a "Christian" religion. One of Jesus' primary teachings was that there is "one God, the Father." How can you SAY you believe in ONE God but also believe YOU can BECOME a God....???
THEeyepatch posted at 7:30 pm on Sat, Oct 1, 2011.
"And to try to show they’re a diverse group of people who are “as regular as anyone else,” in the words of one Mormon"
Anytime that you have to prove yourself as "regular" to other people, something is wrong.. I was born and raised in Salt Lake City, Utah, though I'm not LDS, I obviously grew up around the church. I was once going to be baptized in the LDS church, but there were some problems I had with it's history, ideology, geography, and how Joe Smith really died, and mind you, I was 16 and the internet wasn't around then. I was always intrigued how seemingly smart people (mormons) could believe in such nonsense. And when you question the church, they tell you to read the BoM and trust in your heart. They tell you these things as a cop out, because they don't know. I was taught not to believe everything I hear, and that trusting your heart can be dangerous. Jeremiah 17:9, if you read the bible.
They use the LORD JESUS CHRIST to get into the door, then they want to teach you about the wonderful fiction that is the Book of Mormon. I have walked into many of mormon homes that have glorious framed pictures of the SLC Temple and Joe Smith himself, but you would have to really look to find a little 4 by 8 picture of the LORD JESUS CHRIST.
By the way, I live in Tempe now.
paulsworld posted at 8:41 pm on Sat, Oct 1, 2011.
hay blacks were not aloud in the cult until 1978,it was a cult then and it is one now ,it's well run but a cult just the same , a prophet named Joe smith ,come on what next ,talking dogs ,flying pigs Mormon presidents
mesateacher posted at 8:56 pm on Sat, Oct 1, 2011.
There are creeps, racists, and immoral people in all religions. There are some really vile, corrupt, evil Mormons. And they don't care! When you're raised from birth to think you're a god, how can you be all that bad? What I can't understand is how many LDS people think they're just regular folk.. No, you're not. You don't generally socialize with non-Mormons. In my neighborhood, there are often LDS parties, but us non-members are never invited. You don't support your community: you shop at LDS owned stores, and eat at LDS owned restaurants. You have an LDS choir, but won't support non-LDS performing groups. But, what the heck. I'd still rather have a bunch of milk-toast Mormons in town than a bunch of fascist Muslims.
dbsmartguy posted at 10:01 pm on Sat, Oct 1, 2011.
The ignorance in these first ten comments is exactly why the Church is doing this. Who better to learn the beliefs of Mormons, than from Mormons who live the religion every day of their lives? A visit to www.mormon.org doesn't end in them tying you down , force-feeding doctrines until they can baptize you. The website is everything it claims to be: real-life people with real-life stories of the impact in their lives of their faith. The religion isn't as mysterious or "cultish" as has been accused in the previous postings. Find out for yourself why your friends, neighbors, co-workers, believe what they do. It may not make a Mormon out of you, but at lease you'll understand why the above ten commenters - though they have every right to their opinions - are way off base.
Gizmo posted at 10:05 pm on Sat, Oct 1, 2011.
I don't mind all the wacky rules, the funky underwear or the weird beliefs. If that is what they want, fine. What I mind is the arrogance, clannishness, and the outspoken belief that they are better than everyone else. They don't mix with others, their kids don't believe they should treat kids of other beliefs respectfully, and it is always a question they will ask, as if it is their business. Even worse, you are shunned when you are not a part of them but live among them. Even teachers at the local Mesa schools will favor LDS kids in their classes and the parents will have nothing to do with any non LDS parents. Even workmen when they are at my home will ask me if I am LDS and when I say no, their whole demeanor changes. I have tired of even my own neighbors sending their missionaries to my home when I have politely asked them not to. There are good LDS people everywhere, but Mesa and Provo apparently make them believe that everyone else is a 2nd class citizen.
az2008 posted at 11:02 pm on Sat, Oct 1, 2011.
@dbsmartguy said: "but at least you'll understand why the above ten commenters - though they have every right to their opinions - are way off base."
My posting about "eternal progression" is hardly way off base. It's church doctrine that every human soul may become God in the same way God became God. I.e., earning your salvation as you progress from spirit child to mortal man worshipping your own father God, and becoming a father God yourself (with your spirit children worshipping you as mortals, in the same way you worshipped your father God when you were a mortal, in the same way your father God worshipped his father God when he was a mortal man.).
There is an old Mormon church song by Eliza Snow which sums it up best: "As man is, God once was; As God is, man may become."
There's no misinformation about this. And, your tactic is exactly what most non-Mormons find contemptible about the LDS church. Mormons tend to discredit any information about their beliefs just because they need to present their beliefs in a "managed" way. They don't want prospective converts to hear about how God wasn't always God. Mormons want to present all the Christian sounding terms to blur the *fundamental* differences Mormons have with traditional Judaic and Christian belief about God always being God.
It's that "managed" presentation couched in Christian terms which gives Mormonism the appearance of a cult.
@gizmo, regarding narcissitic Mormon children. I've seen it too. It's hard not to develop egocentricity when you believe you'll become God(!). Talk about the ultimate ego stroke. "Ha, ha, I'm gonna be a God and worshipped by people like you! You're just going to 'terrestial heaven....' not where the real action is happening with spirit wives, birthing spirit children, and populating a new world of mortals who will worship ME!!!!"
It's a wonder Mormon children are as tolerable as they are. (wink)
Leon Ceniceros posted at 11:49 pm on Sat, Oct 1, 2011.
Being raised a Roman Catholic, attending Parochial School for 13 years, I don't find the Mormon Religion any weirder than the Roman Catholic Religion by a long shot. My Aunt became a Mormon in the late 1950's married into Mormon "Aristocracy" (he was born in Mesa a block from where the Mesa Temple stands, ending up being a lousy husband) and was an "Ordinance worker" in the Salt Lake City Temple.
But when I read a quote in this article that said "We are school teachers, we are serving in our community, we are neighbors and we are also Mormons", I had to dispute this. In the Viet Nam War, a Selective Service Draft was instituted to provide Military members for the Armed Services. An 18 year old could either enlist for 3yrs or be drafted for 2 year service if their Draft Number was called up. The Draft was supposed to be race and social status blind. But the Congressmen and the Senators didn't want their sons to possible face battle and be killed or wounded so "deferrments" were put in place for head of households (married with children), college/university students, religious ministry, homosexuality and physical conditions (flat feet, poor eyesight or hearing etc). The 18 year old Mormons were given special "1 in 5 ratio deferrments" for their "Missions". Out of every 5 Mormons who's draft number was call only 1 was drafted. In small towns this meant the very, very rarely were there 5 Mormons called up so none of them were drafted as long as they claimed "religious ministry" deferrment and went on a Mission. Republican Presidential Candidate Mitt Romney was one of these who claimed deferrments for College/University attendance after his 2 years of Missionary work in Paris was completed. Mitt Romney avoided the Draft completely because of this "Special Mormon Arrangement" and university deferrments. There were other 18 year olds who claimed "minister of religion" status to attend Jewish Rabinical Schools and were deferred. But this meant that many 18 year olds with lower Draft numbers who were low-income, non-college/university students, Gentile (non-Mormon, non-Hebrew) 18 year old young men who were not deferred......went as "replacements" for those middle and upper class 18 year olds attending college or claiming a "minister of religion" deferrment. Since this involved hundreds of thousands of "deferred" 18 year olds, mostly blue-collar Whites, Hispanics and Blacks became their replacements in the Draft. Many of these "replacements" were wounded or killed, exposed to Agent Orange or are suffering PTSD from their horrific Viet Nam War experiences....to this day. These deferrments (other than married with children) were not equitable or fair across the board by any streatch of the imagination.
I hardly call that "serving our Community"....or serving our Nation in Her Time of Need..for that matter..would you ?
By the way, I served along side many "Conscientious Objectors" of the Mennonite, Amish and other Religions who were drafted and did serve their 2 years but in Military jobs that did not require using a weapon such as a Medic.The ones I knew were good Soldiers.
Tookie88 posted at 11:50 pm on Sat, Oct 1, 2011.
I admire the Mormon's focus on family...but I am afraid that is about it. They are a like a clique in high school...if you don't believe in what they believe in, you can't associate with them. We have several Mormon neighbors and they hold an annual block party on our street. The problem is they only invite people from their church and no one else...yet it is a "block party". They will block off the street we live on and yet we can't join in.
I would also like my students to not try to convert me. At the beginning of each school year, I have at least 5 kids ask me what my religion is. I tell them nicely that my religion and personal life is my private business and not theirs or their parents. My first year teaching, I made the mistake of saying that I was Catholic to a student who asked and the next day, she brought me a basket filled with cookies and religious books, pamphlets, and a DVD...all courtesy of the Mormon Church. The mom would call me weekly and asked if I had a chance to read through the materials she sent.
Danni posted at 1:00 am on Sun, Oct 2, 2011.
I am a Morman!! there are so many things a misunderstandings about Being a Mormon, I have taught My children to love everyone "Not just Mormons" My children have friends, boyfriends, Girlfriends whoare not Mormons, One of my dearest friends of almost 20yrs is not a Mormon, I have always been involed in my childrens activitys and would never not befriend someone who is not a Mormon, I dont push my Religion on anyone if they like to ask questions then I am more then happy to awnser them. But that is to bad you have had other experience with other members of the church, we believe in the Father the Son and the Holy Ghost, Christ was made in the likness of Man but we will never be perfect as he is. we do our best like any other Family. there are good and bad People in every religion, workplace, schools, etc. we do believe in Families, We do believe in striving to be kind loving giving people, do we fall short of course we do. But we continue to do our best like everyone else. I would never not befriend someone who is not the same religion as me, and most of all of my friends who are Mormon feel the same as I do, I am sorry for those of you who have misunderstandings of our religion, But like I said we are people who stuggle with day to day problems just as you do. and I am a Mormon,
phxvato1202 posted at 4:21 am on Sun, Oct 2, 2011.
@dbssmartguy-- just like you feel the first 10 comments are ignorant one allows me to think the 11th comment is just as ignorant in my opinion. I suppose i believe the scripture that says "by their fruits you shall know them" but since most know that if your not a mormon your not included. Unlike Danni who might possibly be the exception most know that what the first 10 commentors have said have some truth to their comments and if you can't accept that then it is on you. I had 2 missionaries personally come into my home, and one was a 18 yr racists punk who made no apologies for his attitude and actions, total piece of rock whose heart had not been penetrated by Gods love due to his comments and actions. the other missionary was just flabbergasted apologizing profusely for his fellow missionary witness and actions. he asked if he could return later with someone else, i told him no thanks this guy has said all i need to know about mormons and i think i want them around as much as having a rattlesnake in my home no thanks.
so before you think that a video is going to convince some who might have already been basically told that his race was not what mormonism is all about then you don;t need to know anymore. And does the video explain how come it took so long for blacks and minorities to really and truly become a part of the church?
You are deceived if you want the first 10 commentors to think they are wrong for their opinions because there are 10 commentators who possibly think you are wrong and ignorant.
Lilmiss posted at 7:17 am on Sun, Oct 2, 2011.
To "dbsmartguy" and anyone else who questions my previous post and its accuracy, I WAS Mormon - received my 'endowments,' married in the Temple, a "worthy" Temple Recommend Holder... the whole she-bang... for nearly 17 years, until I woke up and got the hell OUT! I lived in the lies, deception and insanity "the church" is, so I'm speaking from personal experience and the simple truth of what the church teaches.
dovendaven posted at 8:25 am on Sun, Oct 2, 2011.
Let's make this clear about mormons concept about Jesus and the topic about additional scriptures. First, LDS doctrine does NOT teach that Jesus sinned. In fact we emphasize that Jesus was baptized despite his perfection to show an example of us obeying the commandment to be baptized for a remission of sins to attain salvation.
Second, many people references Revelations to that adding to words beyond Revelations is forbidden. There is a similar verse in Deuteronomy 7. So if you were to interpret as "word" as "scripture", then ALL of the Bible BEYOND Deuteronomy 7 is false doctrine. The message being sent in the bible is in reference to preaching false doctrine.
In John, Jesus spoke of "other sheep I have, which are not of this fold" and that he intended to visit. That's what the Book of Mormon is about. Record of writings of prophets in the americas who taught the ancient inhabititants of America. The Lord actually spoke of this modern topic in the Book of Mormon saying that he commands inhabitants of all lands to writes the words of god down and the history of the people. Just because God's word in the bible is recorded in the eastern hemisphere, it doesn't mean that his word is restricted in the western hemisphere. We know that people did live in the ancient americas.
I know this to be true through study and prayer. I know that the Jesus I speak of and that other Christians speak of is the SAME Jesus - the one that was slain for the sins and salvation for all the people of the world. I am a Christian because Christ changes my heart everyday.
Checkman posted at 2:41 pm on Sun, Oct 2, 2011.
I became a member of the LDS church several years ago. This was a huge step from being a previous member of the Lutheran church until age 18 and then becoming a committed 27-year atheist after my father died. It's is amazing to see so much misinformation circulating about the LDS church. Never once during my attendance and participation in the LDS church has anyone ever taught a doctrine of "becoming a god," "having my own planet," "that God was once a sinful man," or any of the other negative nonsense mentioned in this topic thread. Fortunately, much of the cult-like peculiarities mentioned here are completely without merit. If an individual really wanted to know the truth about this faith or its people, he or she would investigate first hand versus speculating among the fantasy mill of half-truths and inaccuracies. I think that the only thing more detrimental to the human race than adhering to a faith that may possess misinterpretations and inaccuracies is an individual or group of people who would dismiss it without proper examination. Of course, it would also require a good dose of maturity and intellectual honestey to avoid such fallicious reasoning. If you want to know what an LDS member believes, visit:
http://lds.org/scriptures/pgp/a-of-f/1?lang=eng
You wont find one mention of fantastic silliness mentioned earlier in this discussion. Or, you could just ask me.
- I'm a Mormon
901fan posted at 3:20 pm on Sun, Oct 2, 2011.
At least the comments here aren't filled with bigotry and intolerance. (sarcasm) [innocent]
Leon Ceniceros posted at 5:55 pm on Sun, Oct 2, 2011.
Folks, am I the only one to find it an odd coincidence that this "Buffing the Mormon Image Campaign" is starting before the Senator Russell Pearce Re-Call Election.
Let's see know how many Mormons are trying to get elected here in Arizona.
Matt Salmon (US Congress)
Jeff Flake (US Senate)
Mitt Romney (President of these ole United States of America)
and lastly but not leastly (if this isn't in the Webster's Dictionary...it ought to be...lol)
Past-Mesa Stake President and Mormon Bishop..... Jerry Lewis................
(trying to oust the "Father of SB 1070, Arizona's much imitated...Anti-Illegal Alien Amnesty Law...........Arizona Senator Russell Pearce).
hoosyurdadi posted at 11:45 am on Mon, Oct 3, 2011.
The mormons do get a bad reputation for some things they longer do, but there are still plenty of things their church deserves all the grief they get(prop 8 in particular).
As a former mormon, they do family well but facts are not their friends. If anyone thinks the mormon church isn't sham then they should research the kinderhook plates and the actual translation of the scrolls Joesph Smith used to "translate" the book of Abraham. He was indisputably a charlatan. The mormons have crafted his story into a generally benevolent religion, but it's still based off lies.
901fan posted at 12:02 pm on Mon, Oct 3, 2011.
Leon Ceninceros,
Do you also find it a coincidence that of all of the markets they are doing this only one has Russell Pearce?
"The ads will run in Denver, Atlanta, Phoenix, Seattle, Spokane, Wash., Indianapolis, South Bend and Fort Wayne, Ind., San Antonio and Austin, Texas, and Omaha and Lincoln, Neb., through March 2012."
or that NYC and a dozen other cities last year got the same ads do not have Russell Pearce, Matt Salmon or Jeff Flake either? As far as Mit Romey, well good luch with that one. I would imagine this has more to do with Meida stuff like the show "Sister wives" and the play by the guys from South Park on Broadway in NYC called "the Book of Mormon" up for a Tony Award. It looks like the Mormons are clearing up some of what they feel are misconceptions and trying to rub some of the weird off. Open your eyes, Its bigger than Arizona.
RationalHuman posted at 12:52 pm on Mon, Oct 3, 2011.
If the Mormon Church has a "bad reputation" it is 100% their own fault.
Want to see what REALLY goes on in this cult? Talk to hundreds of ex-members here...it's a support site for ex-Mormons.
www.exmormon.org
RationalHuman posted at 1:10 pm on Mon, Oct 3, 2011.
And before the Mormons worry about other people slandering them, perhaps they could stop this immoral practice themselves...or is that too much to ask?
Example - their apologist website cites anyone who leaves the church, for any reason, is a "deadbeat" who "doesn't have a job."
If they are going to campaign against this type of dishonesty, they need to stop practicing it first. ;)
Accuracy posted at 1:22 pm on Mon, Oct 3, 2011.
“It is getting personal in the Mormon Church.”
Have you read the book titled “The God Makers”?
It’s one of the most powerful books to penetrate the veil of secrecy surrounding the rituals and doctrines of the Mormon Church. "The God Makers" book reveals the inner workings and beliefs of Mormonism. And it reveals the subtle dangers of the fastest-growing religious cult in America.
http://www.amazon.com/God-Makers-Shocking-Expose-Believes/dp/1565077172#_
Which brings up the question: Does Mormonism teach that good Mormons can become Gods of their own worlds?
Yes, according to Mormons; One of their leaders wrote: "…since mortal beings are the spirit children of Heavenly Parents, as pointed out in the last chapter, the ultimate possibility is for some of them to become exalted to Godhood." (The Gospel Through the Ages, Hunter, p.104) Brigham Young declared: "Intelligent beings are organized to become Gods, even the Sons of God, to dwell in the presence of the Gods" (Discourses of Brigham Young, p.245).
RationalHuman posted at 1:35 pm on Mon, Oct 3, 2011.
One more comment - concerning the last line (lie) of the article:
"“The church’s stance has always been to let politics take care of themselves.”
Better start letting your members know about this stance - especially here in Mesa...right now they're making you look like two-faced liars!
downtownresident posted at 5:53 pm on Mon, Oct 3, 2011.
What "misconceptions"???????????????????????
Mormonism is a cult, followed by zealots.
Why else would a marginally literate, marginally articulate person who has no idea who is doing this for her, run for public office. It turns out Mormons don't really care about pagans or Mexicans. In fact, they look on us as inferiors.
Dwight Rogers posted at 6:23 pm on Mon, Oct 3, 2011.
In resplonse to Lilmiss posted 7:00pm Sat, Oct,1 2011 and to az2008 posted 11:02 same date:
In response to az2008: It was Eliza Snows brother, Lorenzo Snow who penned the poem "As man is, God once was; As God is, man may become” and it is not a hymn but a poem. You will see that this is exactly, almost word for word, what the early Christians taught.
Lilmiss says that Mormon’s “belief that they can become Gods of their own planets when they die. That is also the reason they're not really a ‘Christian" religion.’”
It is claimed that Mormons are wrong because they believe in extra-Biblical revelation and scripture. Yet much of Christianity believes in extra-Biblical creeds and councils formulated centuries after the time of Christ and the Apostles. Most of the wording formulations in these creeds cannot be found in the Bible. This is often the excuse used to exclude members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormons) from being Christian. It is well known to historians that Christian doctrine changed over time and across different Christian groups.
And, as Lilmisss and az2008 says, Mormons are also excluded from Christianity for believing in the Biblical and early Christian doctrine of deification. It turns out that these are the very things that Christ, Apostles, and the earliest Christians believed. Let’s let Christ, Paul, John, and the early Christians speak for themselves:
Jesus taught the following:
“Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
“Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
“The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
“Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said ye are gods?
“If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
“Say ye of him whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest, because I said, I am the Son of God:” (John 10:31-36)
Here, the Jews wanted to stone Jesus ” for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.” Jesus then reminded them of their own scripture which teaches that “, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High” from Psalms 82:6.
After this the Jews had to back down. They could not stone him because they knew he was right. They knew that their own scriptures teach the same thing and they had no case against Him. Jesus reminded them that God had “called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken”.
The Apostle Paul makes a similar point as recorded in the New Testament. Like Isaiah, he writes of false man-made gods in 1 Corinthians chapter 8. In addition to the false man-made gods on earth, he also writes of the existence of true gods in the heavens He says:
“For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many and lords many,) But to us there is but one God.. .” (1 Cor. 8: 5-6)
Here Paul recognizes that there are both false gods on earth and true gods in the heavens, but out of them all, there is only one God for us. Some may doubt that Paul was referring to true gods when he said “in heaven” and “(as there be gods many and lords many,). Yet, among true Bible believers, who can believe that there are false gods in heaven? So, when Paul talks of gods in heaven, he can only be talking of true Gods. Here, the Apostle Paul speaking polytheistically about the gods in heaven but monotheistically when he says that only one of them is our God.
Psalms 8:4-5 teaches that man is “a little lower than the gods.” The King James Version (and most translations) give it as “lower than the angels,” but the word used in the Hebrew is gods. The Hebrew term “elohim”,or “gods” is used to describe human judges in Exodus 21:6 and 22:8-9. Here authorized servants of God are called “gods.” Exodus 7:1 says that Moses was to be “god to Pharaoh.” Note that these are with a small “g” recognizing the pre-eminence of the God we worship.
And Paul says in Romans 8:14-18: “For as many as are lead by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God; And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ;”
And again Christ said to John the Revelator: “To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. (Revelations 3:21)
And note these:
“Who is like unto thee, O Lord, among the gods? Who is like thee, glorious in holiness, fearful in praises, doing wonders?” (Ex. 15:11)
“For the Lord your God is God of gods, and the Lord of lords, a great God…
“Thou shalt fear the Lord they God; him shalt thou serve, and to him shalt thou cleave, and swear by his name.
“He is thy praise, and he is thy God…” (Deu. 11:17, 20-21)
“God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.” (Ps. 82:1) Or as it is rendered in the NRSV translation “God has taken His place in the divine council, in the midst of the gods he holds judgment.”
“Among the gods there is none like unto thee, O Lord; neither are there any works like unto thy works.” (Ps. 86:8)
“For thou, Lord, art high above all the earth: thou art exalted far above all gods.” (Ps. 97:9)
“For I know that the Lord is great, and that our Lord is above all gods.” (Ps. 135:5)
“O give thanks unto the God of gods: for his mercy endureth forever. O give thanks to the Lord of lords: for his mercy endureth forever.” (Ps. 136: 2-3)
“For the Lord your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God.” (Deut. 10:17)
Note that the early Christian fathers, the early Bishops and respected orthodox theologians, were good Mormons. Note what they taught:
“God became man that man might become God.” (St. Augustine and Thomas Aquinis in: Philip Barlow, doctoral candidate in American Religious History at Harvard: Unorthodox Orthodoxy: The Idea of Deification in Christian History, Sunstone, Vol 8, no 5, pp 13-16))
“He became what we are, in order that we might be what he is.” (Maximus in Ibid)
“I may become God to the same extent as he became man.” (Gregory of Nazianus in Ibid)
“The Holy Spirit aids man in being made God.” (Basil of Ceasarea in Ibid)
“Flee with all in your power from being man and make haste to become gods.” (Origin in Ibid)
Speaking of the soul which seeks to become pure Clement of Alexandria said: “The soul, receiving the Lord’s power, studies to become a god.” (Clement in Ibid)
IRENAEUS
It has been claimed by some that this doctrine of becoming gods is an altogether pagan doctrine that blasphemes the majesty of God. Not all Christians have thought so, however. Irenaeus [A.D. 130-200], Bishop of Lyons, was instructed by Polycarp. Polycarp was personally instructed by the apostle John. Irenaeus became a prominent bishop in the Church in the second century. He became the most important Christian theologian of his time, and is considered orthodox by mainstream Christianity. Yet he taught:
“If the Word became a man, It was so men may become gods.” (Irenaeus, Against Heresies, bk. 5, pref.)
Irenaeus also taught: “We were not made gods at our beginning, but first we were made men, then, in the end, gods.” (Ibid, also in (Bettenson, H., The Early Christian Fathers, [London: Oxford University Press, 1956,] p. 94.)
Also: “Our Lord Jesus Christ, the Word of God, of his boundless love, became what we are that he might make us what he himself is.” (Irenaeus in Henry Betteson, The Early Christian Fathers, London: Oxford University Press, 1956, p 106)
And: “While man gradually advances and mounts towards perfection; that is, he approaches the eternal. The eternal is perfect; and this is God. Man has first to come into being, then to progress, and by progressing come to manhood, and having reached manhood to increase, and thus increasing to persevere, and persevering to be glorified, and thus see his Lord.” (Irenaeus in Henry Betteson, The Early Christian Fathers, London: Oxford University Press, 1956, p. 94)
And :”How then will any be a god, if he has not first been made a man? How immortal, if he has not in his mortal nature obeyed his maker? For one’s duty is first to observe the discipline of man and thereafter to share in the glory of God.” (Ibid, pp. 95-96)
Indeed, Saint Irenaeus had more to say on the subject of deification:
“Do we cast blame on him [God] because we were not made gods from the beginning, but were at first created merely as men, and then later as gods? Although God has adopted this course out of his pure benevolence, that no one may charge him with discrimination or stinginess, he declares, ‘I have said, ye are gods; and all of you are sons of the Most High.’ For it was necessary at first that nature be exhibited, then after that, what was mortal would be conquered and swallowed up in immortality.” (Irenaeus, Against Heresies,4.38. Cp. 4.11)
“But man receives progression and increase towards God. For God is always the same, so also man, when found in God, shall always progress toward God.” (Ibid)
CLEMENT OF ALEXANDRIA
In the second century, Saint Clement of Alexandria wrote, “Yea, I say, the Word of God became a man so that you might learn from a man how to become a god.” (Clement of Alexandria, Exhortation to the Greeks, 1; Also in Clement of Alexandria, Protrepticus 1, (8,4), in Bettenson, The Early Christian Fathers, p. 244.)
Clement also said that “If one knows himself, he will know God, and knowing God will become like God.. His is beauty, true beauty, for it is God, and that man becomes a god, since God wills it. So Heraclitus was right when he said, ‘Men are gods, and gods are men.’” (Clement of Alexandria, The Instructor, 3.1 See also Clement, Stromateis, 23.)
And also: “‘To him who has shall be added;’ knowledge to faith, love to knowledge, and love to inheritance. And this happens when a man depends on the Lord through faith, through knowledge, and love, and ascends with him to the place where God is, the God and guardian of our faith and love, from whom knowledge is delivered to those who are fit for this privilege and who are selected because of their desire for fuller preparation and training; who are prepared to listen to what is told them, to discipline their lives, to make progress by careful observance of the law of righteousness. This knowledge leads them to the end, the endless final end; teaching of the life that is to be ours, a life of conformity to God, with gods, when we have been freed from all punishment, which we undergo as a result of our wrong-doings for our saving discipline. After thus being set free; those who had been perfected are given their reward and their honors. They have done with their purification, they have done with the rest of their service, though it be a holy service, with the holy; now they become pure in heart, and because of their close intimacy with the Lord there awaits them a restoration to eternal contemplation; and they have received the title of ‘gods,’ since they are destined to be enthroned with other ‘gods’ who are ranked next below the Savior.” (Ibid pp. 243-244)
JUSTIN MARTYR
Still in the second century, Saint Justin Martyr insisted that in the beginning men were “made like God, free from suffering and death,” and that they are “thus deemed worthy of becoming gods and of having power to become sons of the highest.” (Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho, 124)
ST. CYRIL OF JERUSLEM
Here is an interesting quote from St. Cyril of Jerusalem, an early Christian bishop. This fascinating quote is from his Prologue to the Catechetical Lectures:
“When thou shalt have heard what is written concerning the mysteries, then wilt thou understand things which thou knewest not. And think not that thou receivest a small thing: though a miserable man, thou receivest one of God’s titles. Hear St. Paul saying, God is faithful. Hear another Scripture saying, God is faithful and just. Foreseeing this, the Psalmist, because men are to receive a title of God, spoke thus in the person of God: I said, Ye are Gods, and are all sons of the Most High. But beware lest thou have the title of ‘faithful,’ but the will of the faithless. Thou hast entered into a contest, toil on through the race: another such opportunity thou canst not have. Were it thy wedding-day before thee, wouldest thou not have disregarded all else, and set about the preparation for the feast? And on the eve of consecrating thy soul to the heavenly Bridegroom, wilt thou not cease from carnal things, that thou mayest win spiritual?”
ATHANASIUS
In the early fourth century Saint Athanasius – that tireless foe of heresy after whom the orthodox Athanasian Creed is named – also stated his belief in deification:
“The Word was made flesh in order that we might be enabled to be made gods . Just as the Lord, putting on the body, became a man, so also we men are both deified through his flesh, and henceforth inherit everlasting life.” (Athanasius, Against the Arians, 1.39, 3.34.)
On another occasion Athanasius stated, “He became man that we might be made divine” (Athanasius, De Inc., 54.) – yet another parallel to Lorenzo Snow’s expression.
The possibility of human deification is taught again by that “champion of orthodoxy,” Athanasius according to Keith E. Norman. (e.g., see Keith E. Norman, “Deification: The Content of Athanasian Soteriology,” Ph.D. Dissertation, Duke University, 1980, pp. 77-106; and Clyde L. Manschreck, A History of Christianity in the World, 2nd ed., Prentice-Hall, Englewood Cliffs, NJ, 1985, p. 62, both as cited by Ricks and Peterson, p. 78).
He (Athanasius) taught that we are “sons and gods by reason of the word within us.” (G.L. Prestige, God in Patristic Thought, London: 1956, p 73)
JEROME (the Pope's secretary)
St. Jerome explains Psalms 82:6 as did other early Christian fathers:
“‘I said: You are gods, all of you sons of the Most High.’ Let Eunomius hear this, let Arius, who say that the Son of God is son in the same way we are. That we are gods is not so by nature, but by grace. ‘But to as many as receive him he gave power of becoming sons of god.’ I made man for that purpose, that from men they may become gods. ‘I said: Ye are gods, all of you sons of the Most High.’ Imagine the grandeur of our dignity; we are called gods and sons! I have made you gods just as I made Moses a god to pharaoh, so that after you are gods, you may be made worthy to be sons of God. Reflect upon the divine words: ‘with God there is no respector of persons.’ God did not say: ‘I said you are gods,’ you kings and princes; but ‘all’ to whom I have given equally a body, soul, a spirit, I have given equally divinity and adoption. We are ‘all’ born equals. Our humanity is one of equality.” (Jerome, The Homilies of Saint Jerome, Washington D.C.: The Catholic University of America Press, 1964 pp 106-107)
Jerome goes on to explain that man has fallen from being heirs of godship; but that he can rise and gain back this heirship. He says:
“‘Yet like men you shall die.’ You see, therefore that man will die. God does not die. Adam, too, as long as he obeyed the precept and was a god, did not die. After he tasted of the forbidden tree, however, he died immediately. In fact, God says to him: ‘The day you eat of it, you must die.’ The Hebrew has a better way of expressing this: ‘But you like Adam shall die.’ Just as Adam was cast out of the Garden of Eden, so, likewise, were we. ‘And shall fall like one of the princes.’ Since the Lord had said: ‘all of you sons of the Most High,’ it is not possible to be the son of the Most High, unless He Himself is the Most High. I said that all of you would be exalted as I am exalted. But, you ’shall fall like one of the princes.’ It is precisely because we had been so elevated that we are said to have fallen.” (Ibid)
Jerome later indicates that after having become “mere men”, those men can still become gods. He quotes the scriptures and explains: “‘Give thanks to the God of Gods.’ The prophet is referring to those gods of whom it is written: I said: ‘You are gods;’ and again: ‘God arises in the divine assembly.’ They who cease to be mere men, abandon the ways of vice and are become perfect, are gods and the sons of the Most High.” (Ibid p. 353)
TERTULLIAN
“If, indeed, you follow those who did not at the time endure the Lord when showing Himself to be the Son of God, because they would not believe Him to be the Lord, then call to mind along with them the passage where it is written, ‘I have said, Ye are gods, and ye are children of the Most High;’ and again, ‘God standeth in the congregation of the gods:’ in order that, if the scripture has not been afraid to designate as gods human beings, who have become sons of God by faith , you may be sure that the same scripture has with greater propriety conferred the name of the Lord on the true and one-only Son of God.” (Tertullian, The Ante-Nicene Fathers, Grand Rapids Michigan: Wm.B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 1885, vol. 3, p. 608)
ORIGEN
Like other early Church Fathers, Origen, [A.D. 185-254], also teaches the same Biblical doctrine, of Genesis 1:1, that there is a head god who is “Lord of gods”, Origin teaches that there is a distinction to be made between “the God” and others who are also “gods.”
“Everything which, without being ‘God-in-himself’ is deified by participation in his godhead, should strictly be called ‘God,’ not ‘the God.’ The ‘firstborn of all creation,.’ Since he by being ‘with God’ first gathered godhood to himself, is therefore in every way more honored than others besides himself, who are ‘gods’ of whom God is the God, as it is said, ‘God the Lord of gods spoke and called the world.’ For it was through his ministry that they became gods, since he drew divinity from God for them to be deified, and of his kindness generously shared it with them. God, then, is the true God, and those who through him are fashioned into gods are copies of the prototype.” (Ibid p. 324)
He went on to teach: “The Father, then, is proclaimed as the one true God; but besides the true God are many who become gods by participating in God.” (Ibid)
Origen claimed that God “will be ‘all’ in each individual in this way: when all which any rational understanding, cleansed from the dregs of every sort of vice, and with every cloud of wickedness completely swept away, can either feel, or understand, or think, will be wholly God….” (Origen, De Principiis 3:6:3, in Roberts and Donaldson, The Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 4, p. 345.)
AUGUSTINE
Finally, Saint Augustine himself, the greatest of the Christian Fathers, said:
“But he himself that justifies also deifies, for by justifying he makes sons of God. ‘For he has given them power to become the sons of God’ [John 1:12] If then we have been made sons of God, we have also been made gods.” (Augustine, On the Psalms, 50.2 Augustine insists that such individuals are gods by grace rather than by nature, but they are gods nevertheless.)
ST. MAXIMUS
“We find it in early Orthodox tradition as well, for the ‘chief idea of St. Maximus [who died in 662 A.D.] as of all of Eastern theology, [was] the idea of deification” (S.L. Epifanovic as quoted by Jaroslav Pelikan, The Spirit of Eastern Christendom (600-1700). The Christian Tradition, vol. 2, University of Chicago Press, Chicago, 1974, p. 10, as cited by Peterson and Ricks, p. 79).
Question:
If Athanasius, Augustine, Saint Irenaeus, Saint Cyril, Saint Maximus the Confessor, Saint Clement of Alexandria Jerome, and others, including C.S. Lewis in modern days, can teach the doctrine of deification, not to mention Jesus Himself as well as Paul and John, and still be accepted as orthodox Christians, why are Latter-day Saints said to be non-Christian for such beliefs? To me, the evidence is consistent with our claim that the original Church of Jesus Christ has been restored to the earth. Some of our doctrines are clearly at odds with mainstream churches of today, but that’s not because Joseph Smith was making up ludicrous doctrine. Long lost but true doctrines were restored through him as a divinely authorized prophet.
And if popular Christian Orthodoxy continues to hold to the current tradition of later ideas and creeds, then what are they to do with the teachings of the Early Christians, the apostles, and even Jesus Himself when they taught good Mormon doctrine? If Mormons are wrong and not Christian than so were the early Christians who taught the same things. If Mormons are not Christian for these beliefs then this makes the apostles and even Jesus Himself not Christian. Which Christians are right, current Christians, or the Early Christians? Who is right, Jesus, Paul, John, the Psalmist, the early Christian fathers and the Latter-day Saints, or Christians who believe traditions developed centuries after Christ and the Apostles?
Dwight
Dwight Rogers posted at 6:33 pm on Mon, Oct 3, 2011.
Az2008 talks disparagingly about the idea that God was once a man. But let’s let Jesus speak for Himself:
“Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.” (John 5:19-20)
Jesus is God incarnate. This shows that God came to earth and took upon himself a physical body. This shows that God can have a physical body. Jesus was resurrected with that body and will still have it when he comes again. Here,in this passage Jesus tells us that He does nothing - that’s NOTHING - but what he has seen the Father do. Jesus knows this because the Father shows the Son “all things that himself doeth.” Since Jesus does nothing but what he has seen the Father do then This tells us what the Father has done before.
Dwight
Dwight Rogers posted at 6:40 pm on Mon, Oct 3, 2011.
Accuracy at 1:22pm on Mon, Oct 3, 2011 talks about how the book “The Godmakers” is supposed to reveal all the falsehoods of Mormonism and so forth. Try reading the book “The Truth About The Godmakers.” This book is well documented and shows decisively how “The Godmakers” book gets it wrong. Accuracy, if you are really about accuracy you will read this book and correct your wrong information about the Church of Jesus Christ of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
Dwight
Dwight Rogers posted at 6:50 pm on Mon, Oct 3, 2011.
Paulsworld at 8:41 pm on Sat. Oct 1, 2011 writes about blacks not being allowed in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints until 1978. This is inaccurate. Blacks were always allowed in the Mormon Church. A change was made in 1978 which allowed all worthy male members of the Church to be ordained to the priesthood. Before that, some male members were excluded from holding the priesthood but they could always be members of the Church. Note the following information:
Is it true that God never discriminates? Let’s see: God gave the authority to officiate as priests in ancient Israel to only one of the twelve tribes of Israel (Exo. 28:1-4; Num ch 17; Num. 18:6-8; Num. 27: 18-23). We see where Uzza was severely punished for an act that only the priesthood holders were authorized to carry out (1 Chr. 13:9-10). The Aaronic Priesthood was given to the tribe of Levi as "an everlasting priesthood throughout their generations" (Ex. 40:15) and those who could not prove their Levitical lineage were "polluted, put from the priesthood." (Ezra 2:6-26).
If Moses were here today, and if he restricted priesthood authority to only one segment of society and denied it to the others, there would be a great outcry of discrimination against Moses as a false and racist prophet. Yet it was not Moses who did it, it was the Lord. Moses was just carrying out the commandment.
After Christ came and fulfilled the Law of Moses, there were to be priests from tribes other than the tribe of Levi. Two examples are given: Christ himself, and Melchizedek who would "not be called after the order of Aaron. For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law." (Heb. 7:11-12). Thus, we see in the Bible that not only does God change the rules over time but that he discriminates as to who gets to hold the priesthood and then, later, he revokes that restriction. This is an almost exact parallel to what God did in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in regard to priesthood authority. Seems that the God of Mormonism acts just the same as does the God of the Bible!
Note another example: Jesus commanded that the gospel be taken only to the Jews. (Matthew 10:5-6) So, using the reasoning of the anti-Mormons Jesus was prejudiced and he must be false. That would pretty much make the whole Bible false. Later God revealed to Peter that the time had come to take the gospel to the Gentiles (Acts 10) This came by revelation to the man who was the prophet at the time - Peter. It does not come by the will or reasoning of men. This shows that God has his purposes and his time table. It is not revealed why the gospel was denied to the gentiles at first but it was God's will that it be so. Likewise it is so with the Church and priesthood authority in the Church today.
Note some other examples of variableness in Gods dealings with man: One of the most well known commandments is "Thou shalt not kill." (Ex. 20:13) Yet God commanded on other occasions, and in certain circumstances, that people be killed. The Lord said that murderers be put to death (Num. 35:16-21, 30-33; Ex. 21:12; Gen. 9:6; Rev. 13:10; Rom. 1:32). The Lord commanded that a man be put to death for gathering sticks on the Sabbath day (Num. 15:32-35; Ex. 35:2). He commanded that adulterers be put to death (Lev. 20:10, Deu. 22:13-29). And He commanded the death penalty for other reasons as well (Deu. 13:1-11; 17:1-12; 21:20-23).
Additionally the Lord commanded the Israelites to take possession of cities and kill all the inhabitants, not only to kill the soldiers, but all the people, even the elderly and the children, and all the animals (Deu 7:2,23; 1 Sam. 15:2-3). He commanded Abraham to kill his son Isaac. From these Biblical examples we see that God can give commandments and he can make exceptions to the commandments he has given.
The Law of Moses did not exist from the time of Adam down to the time of Moses. The people of Moses’ time would not live the higher laws so they were given the Law of Moses. It was added to the higher laws of God because of the stubbornness of the children of Israel. The scriptures say "...ye could not be justified by the Law of Moses" (Acts 13:39); and "For the law made nothing perfect..." (Heb 7:19); and that the law "...was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ" (Gal. 3:24). Later, the law of Moses was fulfilled by Christ and no longer observed (See Acts 13:39; Heb. 7:19; Ga. 3:24).
Thus we see in the Bible: No law of Moses, then the Law of Moses, then No Law of Moses again. After the Law of Moses was fulfilled in Christ, He gave "a better covenant" (Heb. 7:6), and spoke of "the first covenant" (Heb. 7:7), and "a new covenant" (Heb 7:8,13). And we also read where the God instituted "a change also of the law" (Heb 7:12), and He said: "For verily there is a disannulling of the commandment going before" (Heb. 7:18). It is clear that God can change his laws, or the way his gospel is administered, as he pleases.
The critics of the LDS Church would have us believe that the Church is false because the priesthood was withheld from Blacks and the God of Mormonism is a false God. If so then the Bible is also false for the same reason. In the Bible Moses, under God’s direction, withheld the priesthood from the other 11 tribes of Israel. So, by the same standard that makes Moses a false prophet and the Bible is false as well. However, the Bible is not false and Moses is not a false prophet. It is the anti-Mormon logic that is false. If we follow the anti-Mormon logic then Jesus would also be false because he withheld the gospel from the Gentiles.
It is not Jesus, God, Moses, Joseph Smith, or the restored Church that is the problem. It is the false standard for judgment that is set up by the anti-Mormons. They set up a standard that is un-factual, unhistorical, un-scriptural and which proves the Bible and even Jesus false along with Joseph Smith and Mormonism. The truth: God can withhold the priesthood from any group anytime he wants to. He is God. He can do whatever he wants.
I don’t know why God withheld priesthood from the other 11 tribes of Israel. I don’t know why Jesus commanded that the gospel be first taken to the Jews and excluded the Gentiles. I don’t know why God withheld priesthood authority from Blacks until 1978 in these latter days.
The issue of Blacks and the priesthood is a non-issue. All of the other anti-Mormon arguments are not the real issue. The real issue is this: Is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints the true church restored to the earth? Is Joseph Smith a true prophet of God? Is the Book of Mormon true? If so then it was God, and not Joseph Smith or any other man who directed the priesthood to be withheld from Blacks just as it was God, not Moses, who withheld the priesthood from the other 11 tribes in the Bible.
Dwight
Accuracy posted at 8:03 pm on Mon, Oct 3, 2011.
Dwight Rogers posted: "Try reading the book “The Truth About The Godmakers.”
So, try reading other books about Mormonism that include; “Decker's Complete Handbook on Mormonism”, "Fast Facts on False Teachings”, and “What You Need to Know About Masons”.
Because, Mormonism does teach that God was once a man on another world and progressed to become God of this world. Joseph Smith declared: "God Himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp.345-346).
Brigham Young preached: "It appears ridiculous to the world, under their darkened and erroneous traditions, that God has once been a finite being" (Deseret News, Nov. 16, 1859, p. 290). Another Morman leader coined the phrase: "As man is, God once was; as God is, man may become" (The Gospel Through the Ages, Hunter, p.105-106).
downtownresident posted at 8:38 pm on Mon, Oct 3, 2011.
Accuracy ,
There's no hope for you.
Mormonism is a misguided cult.
Mormonism is a misguided cult.
Mormonism is a misguided cult.
Mormonism is a misguided cult.
Mormonism is a misguided cult.
Mormonism is a misguided cult.
Mormonism is a misguided, exclusionary cult, which suffers from both an inferiority and superiority complex at the same time.
Your disdain for pagans is known far and wide.
The end justifies the means.
God help you, because Joseph Smith sure as Hell can't.
abimopectore posted at 10:05 pm on Mon, Oct 3, 2011.
Dwight Rogers,
I've never read a more twisted and tortured interpretation of the development of Christian doctrine that lacks any of the philosophical rigor in the understanding of the nature of existence. You're confusing the literal statements of the Church Fathers and interpreting them as if they were the ontological justification for man's place within God's realm and who God is. Unfortunately, if you were to read closely many of the early works of the Christian Tradition you'd realize that we don't share in God's nature. We are creatures, meaning created beings, and not eternal like God is, who has no beginning nor end. You wouldn't be trying to equate humanity with God in any way. If God has taken our form, it's been his choice and clearly out of mercy and love and this has nothing to do with anything about us created beings being special in any way with respect to his divinity. You need to take a philosophy class so you don't misinterpret what the Church Fathers stated, because you are way off in your literalist and out of context interpretation. The biggest hurdle I see with Mormonism is the historical context. Why would the Christian God wait until the 1800's to tell (i.e., clarify) the story of Jesus when it has already been done 1800 years earlier in the early writings of the nascent Church and in the development of doctrine that occurred in the time that has evolved since then? It doesn't make sense that God kept the world in the dark prior to Joseph Smith's life. Mormonism's later development does not further the development of doctrine since there are so many contradictions and it's pretty obvious with how the majority of the Christian faiths have never accepted anything Mormonism has stated. The one thing Mormons don't realize is that ALL public revelation has occurred in the life of Jesus Christ (i.e., and NOT in Joseph Smith's life nor in your current leader's life). It has already happened. Anything that contradicts or that is inconsistent with this revelation is not from the Christian God.
Arizona Willie posted at 7:29 am on Tue, Oct 4, 2011.
These commecials do NOTHING to explain the Mormon " faith ".
All they do is say " I'm Joe Jones and I'm stupid too ".
So what if Joe Jones is a Mormon.
Considering all the crooked Mormon politicians that Arizona has put into office, claiming oneself to be a Mormon doesn't seem to be a real good talking point.
Of course, they don't dare actually explain the Mormon " faith ".
RationalHuman posted at 8:21 am on Tue, Oct 4, 2011.
Wow! Is Dwight Rogers actually claiming to be Mormon?
Because his diatribe of lies and twisted facts doesn't seem very Christlike.
Dwight Rogers posted at 3:19 pm on Tue, Oct 4, 2011.
In response to Accuracy posted at 8:03 pm on Mon, Oct 3, 2011.
I have read those kind of books all my life. When I go to primary sources they quote it turns out they always get it wrong.
It’s easy to take someone’s deeply held beliefs and to satirize, sensationalize, exaggerate, and make fun of those beliefs. Would you go to the Ku Klux Klan to learn about racial equality? Would you go to Hitler to learn about treating Jews fairly? Would you go to the Bible with the intent to learn about Christ and Christianity and read only the viewpoint of the Scribes and Pharisees while neglecting to read what Jesus and the Apostles taught? I recommend that if you want to know about the real teachings of the Church of Jesus Christ of Later-day Saints (Mormons) you should go to Mormon sources like momon.org or to the material published by the Church. Outside “Experts” have a habit of sifting through Mormon history and teachings so they can ignore everything but what they cherry pick and take out of context.
Find out for yourself what Mormons believe but don’t learn it from the enemies of Mormonism.
Regarding your other points about becoming gods and so forth, read my previous post at 6:23 pm on Mon, Oct 3, 2011 where I show where Jesus, the Apostles, and the early Christians taught the very things that you disagree with. If you don’t believe Jesus Himself or the Apostles then I don’t think I can help you.
Dwigh
Dwight Rogers posted at 3:33 pm on Tue, Oct 4, 2011.
In response to abimopectore posted at 10:05 pm on Mon, Oct 3, 2011.
The “philosophical rigor” of later centuries you refer to does not represent the simple teachings of Christ and the Apostles and is not reflected by the very early Christian Fathers. It’s not until the ontological debates of later centuries that the “literal statements of the Church Fathers” and of Christ Himself are changed into metaphors and allegories so that the original teachings could be twisted to fit the Greek philosophies of the day. Now, many, apparently yourself included, filter the original Biblical and early Christian teachings through the lens of the very complicated and metaphysical creedal debates of later centuries. Thus, people no longer read the Bible for what it says but, rather, the Bible must be made to conform to the extra-biblical creeds.
Jesus and the Apostles taught what they taught. It is amazing how many scores of things Joseph Smith got right. It’s amazing to see how many LDS doctrines are, in fact, found in the Bible and early Christina teaching. It’s not so much about whether you believe in Mormonism but rather, do you believe the Bible without re-interpreting it through the doctrinal lens of later centuries. Mormonism fares very well when set against Biblical and historical facts as long as the comparison is made without prior bias. I stand by what I posted because it is true and it is well documented.
Dwight
abimopectore posted at 5:01 pm on Tue, Oct 4, 2011.
In response to Dwight Rogers posted at 3:33 pm on Tue, Oct 4, 2011,
"The “philosophical rigor” of later centuries you refer to does not represent the simple teachings of Christ and the Apostles and is not reflected by the very early Christian Fathers. It’s not until the ontological debates of later centuries that the “literal statements of the Church Fathers” and of Christ Himself are changed into metaphors and allegories so that the original teachings could be twisted to fit the Greek philosophies of the day."
The very early Christian Fathers were very much aware of the Greek and Roman cultures they lived in. In fact, the Gospel of John is a great reflection on this reality. Your point about syncretism is not compelling if you wash away the later Councils and debates since their efforts were not done to complicate the teachings of Christ and His apostles but to clarify what was orthodox and keep at bay heretical positions that were hardening. The Bible along with the Tradition of the Church are what drives these Councils and their formulations, contrary to how you've twisted it completely around.
Joseph Smith was born in the 1800's and to think that God was silent on this issue for 1800 years is just not believable. The Mormon doctrines you claim are in the Bible are in fact not there without twisting the historical facts and creating non-facts that just never existed.
You stated:
"It’s not so much about whether you believe in Mormonism but rather, do you believe the Bible without re-interpreting it through the doctrinal lens of later centuries."
How do you think the Bible was formed???? The Bible was formed by the Tradition of the Church and through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit through the men that wrote these books. You can't separate one from the other. So when you state "re-interpreting it through doctrinal lens of later centuries" you're really just ignoring the "historical" fact that the Bible's formation was being influenced by these debates in the centuries that followed the founding of Christianity. You really need to study the development of doctrine and realize that no further revelation was necessary as Mormonism claims. The historical facts you claim have been easily refuted by many. Let me ask you, "Why should we believe the Book of Mormon over the early Church fathers?” I know this is where you get most of your information. If I was a betting person, I'd bet that the early Church Fathers were more familiar with Christ's message and His apostles than Joseph Smith ever was by the simple fact that they lived during that time and Joseph Smith didn't live until the 1800's.
I know plenty of Mormon folks and most are extremely generous and kind folks, unlike some of the politicians that really give Mormonism a bad name. Mormon theology is just not credible.
RationalHuman posted at 6:18 pm on Tue, Oct 4, 2011.
And now the lying weasel Dwight Rogers is accusing the critics of cherry-picking.
How ironic...and fallacious. Accusing your accusers is quaint and outdated.
"It’s amazing to see how many LDS doctrines are, in fact, found in the Bible and early Christina teaching."
How is plagiarism amazing? When you copy someone else's work, OF COURSE they will appear similar!
RationalHuman posted at 6:21 pm on Tue, Oct 4, 2011.
"Mormonism fares very well when set against Biblical and historical facts as long as the comparison is made without prior bias."
Calling mythology historical or factual is showing extreme bias...not to mention willfull ignorance.
RationalHuman posted at 4:58 pm on Fri, Oct 7, 2011.
Aaaand...nothing.
Nothing like the Light of Truth to scatter the cockroaches.