A group of Arizona atheists has gone to court to block Gov. Jan Brewer from doing something she has done at least twice before: Declare the first Thursday in May as a day of prayer.
Legal papers filed on behalf of the Freedom From Religion Foundation contend such declarations violate the First Amendment which precludes Congress from approving any law "respecting an establishment of religion." Attorney Richard Morris said an official declaration by Brewer creating an "Arizona Day of Prayer" is directly contrary to that amendment.
"You cannot have government in any way advocating religion," he said. "There has to be a separation of church and state."
But gubernatorial press aide Matthew Benson said his boss is on firm legal ground.
"Public call to prayer is an honored American tradition dating back to George Washington," he said. "We invite Americans of every race, background and creed to voluntarily come together, if they choose, to pray for guidance, wisdom and courage."
But Morris said even a call like this creates harm.
"People who do not believe are considered outsiders," he said. "The proclamations make that fairly clear."
That's also the position of two organizations who have been involved in either crafting legislation or going to court over the right of people to pray in public situations.
"The First Amendment says you can't prohibit the free exercise of religion," said Cathi Herrod, president of the Center for Arizona Policy. And Herrod, who also is an attorney, called the concept of a separation of church and state "a fallacy."
Brett Harvey, senior legal counsel to the Scottsdale-based Alliance Defense Fund, said what Brewer - and others - have done with these declarations is legal.
"It is perfectly acceptable for politicians and for public officials to recognize the religious heritage of this country," he said. And Harvey said the U.S. Supreme Court has even upheld things like prayers to open meetings and swear in public officials.
Attorney Marc Victor, the co-counsel in the lawsuit against Brewer, said his Chandler firm, which he described as a "pro-freedom law firm," is not anti-religion or even trying to stop people from praying.
"We are absolutely as strongly an advocate of the right of people to pray if they want, as we also advocate the right of people to not pray if they do not want to pray," Victor said. "But we believe that the government should just simply stay out of it."
Victor said the fact that these declarations don't urge a specific prayer or endorse a specific religious belief does not make it legal.
"It sort of assumes that everybody prays," he said, noting that the lawsuit includes not just the Freedom From Religion Foundation but four Arizonans who each are listed as "a nonbeliever in religion or in one or more gods."
Victor noted that not everyone prays. And that, he said, is what makes the proclamation both wrong and illegal.
"It's unfair for the governor, who represents everybody, to be out there urging people to pray or not to pray," he said, saying he would similarly oppose any gubernatorial proclamation that people not pray. "It's just not the role of government."
There is little chance that U.S. District Court Judge Roslyn Silver will have a hearing on the matter before this year's proclamation is issued.
k33j88 posted at 5:31 am on Tue, Apr 5, 2011.
These lively comments forced me to re-read the constitutional amendments. Anyone that believes that there should be a "separation of church and state" is totally dillusional. Our founding fathers thoughts and actions were based on an affirmation of sound and just christian beliefs. Last time I checked, "prohibiting the free exercise thereof" meant just that. Since when does an individual check their "rights" at the door when they become public servants? Isn't "IN GOD WE TRUST" still being printed on money? We need to pray for liberals to see the error of their ways.
barkeep posted at 11:59 pm on Mon, Apr 4, 2011.
"But we beleive that the government should just simply stay out of it." Hey, I have an idea. Why don't you Freedom From Religious Foundation people simply stay out of it? If you don't want to pray, then don't pray. I seriously doubt that you will be chastised or ridiculed for it. I am agnostic and I don't have a problem with it. Really, you people need to get over yourselves! Why don't you quit worrying so much about what other people are doing and worry about what you are doing. Geez, don't you have anything better to do with your time? You liberals want everyone else to be tolerant , but YOU never consider showing any tolerance. GET OVER IT!!
bannersucks posted at 7:08 pm on Mon, Apr 4, 2011.
The First Amendment says Freedom of religion, not Freedom from religion.
Engus1 posted at 3:47 pm on Sun, Mar 27, 2011.
Cerulean posted: 'The first amendment states that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion'....
The optimal portion of the 1st Amendment is 'CONGRESS shall make no law'
It was intended to take the matter completely OUT of the hands of the Federal government, or in Great Britain's case, the Monarchy.
'Establishment' in the minds of the Founders was a National religion such as Great Britain has. (The Anglican Church, with the Monarch as It's Head.)
The Colonists were taxed to maintain the Anglican Church here in the US until the States won Their freedom.
The Founders wanted no part of such an arrangement and wanted to take the matter out of the hands of the Federal Congress.
The Federal government has no business telling the States how to manage State affairs, whether it be Congress OR the Supreme Court.
EmperorSmith posted at 3:55 pm on Sun, Mar 20, 2011.
Believe what u want to I do see as I do but do not force apon others. Others should not use force. Because that which inflict maybe be inflicted back on you same as that which you take can be taken from you.
Leon Ceniceros posted at 5:09 pm on Sat, Mar 19, 2011.
Barack Hussein Obama considers himself a Christian???
Not THAT is unbelieveable!!
EVEN HIS BIRTH CERTIFICATE STATES... HE IS A............MUSLIM
kenj12 posted at 1:08 pm on Fri, Mar 18, 2011.
Jan Brewer considers herself a Christian???
Now THAT is unbelievable!!
rothbardlovesme posted at 2:28 pm on Thu, Mar 17, 2011.
Also, Ronaldo, Thomas Jefferson mentioned separation of church and state in his 1802 Danbury Baptist Letter:
"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between church and State."
So, I really doubt he would consider the FFRF as "scoundrels and liars of the worst degree."
rothbardlovesme posted at 2:15 pm on Thu, Mar 17, 2011.
The Bill of Rights applies to citizens, not to governments. The government does not have the right to free speech. I fully support FFRF and Marc Victor.
Ronaldo posted at 1:01 pm on Thu, Mar 17, 2011.
FFRF, ACLU, AU and others have repeatedly lied about the meaning of the First Amendment. It says nothing about restricting the free exercise of religion. Instead, it protects the free exercise of religion and prevents government from interfering with religion. In months of debate over the First Amendment in 1789, not one of the Founding Fathers mentioned "separation of church and state." An ACLU amicus brief to the Supreme Court case of Everson v. Board of Education in 1947 was adopted by leftists on the court who cited a 'wall of separation of church and state.' FA prevents the government from ESTABLISHING a national religion, which is has not done. If those 90 Founders were alive today, they would be praying in Congress, the White House, the courts, the schools, the universities, parks, city streets, football games and commencements. They would regard FFRF as scoundrels and liars of the worst degree.
Slabside posted at 11:04 am on Thu, Mar 17, 2011.
OORAH Leon![beam]
Leon Ceniceros posted at 8:35 am on Thu, Mar 17, 2011.
I PLEDGE ALLIGIANCE TO THE FLAG OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, AND TO THE REPUBLIC FOR WHICH IT STANDS, ONE NATION UNDER GOD, INDIVISIBLE, WITH LIBERTY AND JUSTICE FOR ALL
chick posted at 2:52 am on Thu, Mar 17, 2011.
The only religion that I see in the World that says either you convert of die, is Radical Islam. Not Christianity, not Judaism , not Buddhism, not Sikh...
Slabside posted at 10:54 pm on Wed, Mar 16, 2011.
"FFRF warmly thanks the local plaintiffs — Mike Wasin, John S. Compere, Michael Renzuilli and Justin Grant — who make possible the Arizona challenge, and attorneys Richard W. Morris and Marc J. Victor, who are both FFRF members."
i.e. THE MORONS.
chick posted at 7:55 pm on Wed, Mar 16, 2011.
"FFRF warmly thanks the local plaintiffs — Mike Wasin, John S. Compere, Michael Renzuilli and Justin Grant — who make possible the Arizona challenge, and attorneys Richard W. Morris and Marc J. Victor, who are both FFRF members."
Cerulean posted at 7:50 pm on Wed, Mar 16, 2011.
The first amendment states that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, . . ." Prayer is religion - and if you want, you can and should pray every day, three times a day or more if you like. Government should not tell people when to pray.
In 17th century England religion was forced, you were Protestant or Catholic or you were publicly humiliated. Many in fact were burned at the stake and their property was seized by the church. America became a religious refuge, a place where people were free of the monarchs religion. Lets keep it that way.
Rich posted at 7:30 pm on Wed, Mar 16, 2011.
Hey guys, Brewer is Governor, we need to pray or else we won't have prayer.
Slabside posted at 7:11 pm on Wed, Mar 16, 2011.
More like a group of Arizona morons. So what if she declares a day of prayer? If you pray... great. If not... DON"T PRAY! [thumbdown]